Diesel-gate part deux.

[ZR]

Now it's Dodge / Cummings.

Owners of Dodge Ram trucks are now claiming that Fiat Chrysler installed so-called “defeat device” technology — though different from what was found in Volkswagen’s ongoing “Dieselgate (https://consumerist.com/2015/09/18/volkswagen-ordered-to-recall-500k-vehicles-over-emission-violations/)” scandal — that was allegedly designed to do a bad job of restricting emissions.
The lawsuit [PDF (https://consumermediallc.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/dodgecomplaint-1.pdf)], filed Monday in a federal court in Detroit, is the first brought against a U.S.-based manufacturer. It accuses Fiat Chrysler of conspiring with engine manufacturer Cummins in knowingly deceiving consumers and regulators about the amount of emissions released by certain Dodge Ram trucks.
According to the lawsuit, more than 500,000 model year 2007 to 2012 diesel-engine Dodge Ram 2500 and 3500 trucks contain devices that allow the vehicles to emit nitrogen oxide at up to 14 times more than that allowed under federal law.
Despite this, the suit claims that FCA and Cummins worked together to market and sell the trucks under the false pretense that they were “super clean” or “cleaner than gas vehicles,” or environmentally friendly.
“Cummins Inc. and Chrysler saw a golden business opportunity, and worked together to build a truck that, at least on paper,” met stringent standards set forth by the Environmental Protection Agency in 2001.
The two companies allegedly created a plan to “leapfrog” the industry and produce a vehicle that met standards three years before they were set to take effect in 2010.
The result was a truck touted as the “strongest, cleanest, quietest best-in-class” turbo diesel engine that was “super clean” and used exclusively in the Dodge 2500 and 2500 Heavy Duty trucks.
The Ram owners — represented by the law firm of Hagens Berman — claim that in order to produce a diesel engine with “desirable torque and power characteristics, good fuel economy, and emissions levels low enough to meet the stringent standards,” the companies developed a flawed product with limited capacity to trap or minimize excess emissions.
Typically, the primary emission control after-treatment technologies in the vehicle included a diesel particulate filter (DPF) and a NOx adsorber catalyst system to capture and reduce NOx into less harmful substances, such as nitrogen and oxygen.
However, the lawsuit claims that the catalysts in the Dodge trucks are not durable and do not meet emission standards.
As a result, testing by Hagens Berman found that the trucks emit an average of 702mg of NOx/mile in stop-and-go traffic, significantly more than the 200 mg/mile allowed under federal law.
Additionally, under highway driving, tests found the trucks emitted 756mg/mile, a violation of the 400mg/mile allowed under California law.
The suit further alleges that creating a device that prevented NOx from being broken down, which means the vehicles require more gas and deteriorate more quickly.
Specifically, the catalytic converter wears out prematurely, resulting in the vehicle burning fuel at a higher rate. As a result, owners pay more for fuel and often must replace the converter after the warranty has expired at a cost of approximately $3,000 to $5,000.
The plaintiffs accuses FCA and Cummins of fraudulent concealment, false advertising, and violating the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) Act.
Additionally, the companies are accused of intentionally misleading the public, concealing emissions levels, illegally selling noncompliant polluting vehicles, knowingly profiting from the dirty diesels and using fraudulently gained emissions credits from the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to use on further production of high-polluting vehicles

[StAnger]

People who buy "clean diesels" for anything but torque and fuel economy deserve to be duped.

[bluetoy]

People who buy "clean diesels" for anything but torque and fuel economy deserve to be duped.

I think the people who say that they bought their diesel to save a tree are liars. I'll tell them that to their face too. lol I think if they start really digging they will find that all the car companies have some sort of emission "cheating" device on all cars and trucks gas or diesel. It's gotta be next to impossible to meet the retarded EPA emission and fuel economy standards.

[Stephen06GT]

Oh boy, this is not good. More fuel for governments to tighten emissions regulations , then they will target aftermarket tuners , then...

[RedSN]

The suit further alleges that creating a device that prevented NOx from being broken down, which means the vehicles require more gas and deteriorate more quickly.
Well there's your problem

[Laffs]

I'm confused, is similar diesel gate where there was defeat device in place that only limits emission under certain condition, or are they alleging that the emission equipment as installed was of poor design to begin with and costly to maintain and repair?

[Ponyryd]

What kind of stupid law firm took this case? They just saw FCA as an easy target and expect a quick cash settlement would be my guess.
I've seen issues with the components they claim are failing, but only on trucks that idle all day long, or are used as grocery getters. People don't realize that a Diesel engine needs to be worked to get it hot enough to function properly, same goes for the emissions systems, and this applies to any Diesel engine/emssions system. Actually I've seen many more failures from Ford trucks, but under the same circumstances, trucks that sit and idle for long periods of time.

[tulowd]

I believe my first post on the VW diesel scandal suggested that they were not the only ones. Liberals now have something else to freak out about besides the media and polling fails. :)
As far as the temps go, I think that is wrong. Emissions standards are pretty clear and doubtful they will require you to tow a trailer up a mountain in order to be warmed up enough. Some semblance of "normal operating conditions" I would suspect.

[StAnger]

I think the people who say that they bought their diesel to save a tree are liars. I'll tell them that to their face too. lol I think if they start really digging they will find that all the car companies have some sort of emission "cheating" device on all cars and trucks gas or diesel. It's gotta be next to impossible to meet the retarded EPA emission and fuel economy standards.

If I ever bought one of the "scandal" VWs, I'd have a sticker made up that says. TDI: Because saving $$$ > saving trees

[ZR]

I'm confused, is similar diesel gate where there was defeat device in place that only limits emission under certain condition, or are they alleging that the emission equipment as installed was of poor design to begin with and costly to maintain and repair?

I've also read it several times and don't have a 100% grasp on how they feel if the trucks are emitting high emissions it's actionable by private owners vs US EPA folks going after them. I do get the part where they claim it's a result of catalytic converters failing prematurely.

[ZR]

What kind of stupid law firm took this case? They just saw FCA as an easy target and expect a quick cash settlement would be my guess.
I've seen issues with the components they claim are failing, but only on trucks that idle all day long, or are used as grocery getters. People don't realize that a Diesel engine needs to be worked to get it hot enough to function properly, same goes for the emissions systems, and this applies to any Diesel engine/emssions system. Actually I've seen many more failures from Ford trucks, but under the same circumstances, trucks that sit and idle for long periods of time.

Yes used as a grocery getting / cowboy cadillac, those folks would be seeing failures exceeding those that are actually used as a truck. On the flip side, they are being sold as loaded up monster cruisers, is it really up to the consumer to know they don't stand up well to that kinda use? As for Ford trucks and their diesel related issues, no argument here.

[Ponyryd]

^I totally agree ZR, and nobody in the sales department is gonna tell a customer that, so it then gets blamed on faulty equipment. Worse still, you get these new "Eco-diesels" in 1500s and Grand Cherokees and it's that much worse, the cats on those things fail so often we probably have them in stock, but it's always on trucks that are spotlessly clean and have never had a hitch in the receiver, never highway heroes or work trucks.


I believe my first post on the VW diesel scandal suggested that they were not the only ones. Liberals now have something else to freak out about besides the media and polling fails. :)
As far as the temps go, I think that is wrong. Emissions standards are pretty clear and doubtful they will require you to tow a trailer up a mountain in order to be warmed up enough. Some semblance of "normal operating conditions" I would suspect.

I don't see anywhere where it specifies an EPA-cheating device or software like the VWs were using, it simply states that the emissions parts may fail prematurely, causing higher emissions, which is true. All I'm saying is that 99% of the catalyst/dpf/egr failures on diesels is due to customers not using their vehicles as they were intended to be used, which is true of any brand of car.
Imagine for a minute starting your car, letting it run for ten minutes then shutting it off, do this 500 times then go for an etest, guess what-your cats are likely toast because they never got hot enough to burn off the fuel that your pushing into them, same thing rings true here, the parts work fine when new, but over time they become plugged with soot and ash and just don't work because they too cold to burn any of it off. I've seen it tons of times with Ford, GM and FCA diesels, it's all in how you use them, which is why most of them now have engine hour counters built into the cluster, bcm or PCM, so now I can go in and see if a truck has twice the hours as it should since it sits and idles. And if it returns for the same emissions issue Time and time again it will likely be denied any warranty because it's not supposed to idle that long.

[ZR]

^I totally agree ZR, and nobody in the sales department is gonna tell a customer that, so it then gets blamed on faulty equipment. Worse still, you get these new "Eco-diesels" in 1500s and Grand Cherokees and it's that much worse, the cats on those things fail so often we probably have them in stock, but it's always on trucks that are spotlessly clean and have never had a hitch in the receiver, never highway heroes or work trucks.



I don't see anywhere where it specifies an EPA-cheating device or software like the VWs were using, it simply states that the emissions parts may fail prematurely, causing higher emissions, which is true. All I'm saying is that 99% of the catalyst/dpf/egr failures on diesels is due to customers not using their vehicles as they were intended to be used, which is true of any brand of car.
Imagine for a minute starting your car, letting it run for ten minutes then shutting it off, do this 500 times then go for an etest, guess what-your cats are likely toast because they never got hot enough to burn off the fuel that your pushing into them, same thing rings true here, the parts work fine when new, but over time they become plugged with soot and ash and just don't work because they too cold to burn any of it off. I've seen it tons of times with Ford, GM and FCA diesels, it's all in how you use them, which is why most of them now have engine hour counters built into the cluster, bcm or PCM, so now I can go in and see if a truck has twice the hours as it should since it sits and idles. And if it returns for the same emissions issue Time and time again it will likely be denied any warranty because it's not supposed to idle that long.

I recently spoke with a guy driving a loaded to the nines new Dodge pick up with an ED. See him a time or two a week at the coffee shop, always leaves it idling outside. He, just like many diesel owners, thinks it was "made to idle" for extended periods of time and will stand up just fine as his daily driver that will see limited hwy miles and most certainly will never ever once be worked. He also believes in the ridiculous suggested oil change intervals, a prime candidate for premature emissions and pretty much everything else engine related issues.
I owned a number of diesels back in my towing days, miss having one dearly. Do know for my short run here and there, only pull a trailer a few times a year etc lifestyle, having one makes zero sense.

[Stephen06GT]

Going back to dieselgate part one, the news is reporting that VW plans to lay off 30000 employees to help cover the billions in fines they have to pay the US government.

[ZR]

Automaker Volkswagen said Friday it will shed 30,000 jobs to cut costs as it tries to recover from its diesel emissions scandal and invests more in electric-powered vehicles and digital services.
Company officials said at a news conference at headquarters in Wolfsburg, Germany, that 23,000 of the job cuts will come in Germany. It said the measures will save some 3.7 billion euros ($4 billion) a year from 2020.
Volkswagen has agreed to pay $15 billion under a settlement with U.S. authorities and owners of some 500,000 vehicles with software that turned off emissions controls. Around 11 million cars worldwide have the deceptive software. The scandal has been a spur for the company to address problems such as excessively top-down management and excessive fixed costs at its manufacturing locations in Germany.
The company has said it aims to cut nonessential costs and investments and shift investment toward battery-powered cars and services such as car-sharing and ride-sharing.
CEO Matthias Mueller said it was "the biggest reform package in the history of our core brand." In addition to Volkswagen, the company also makes cars under other brands including Porsche, Audi, SEAT, Skoda and Lamborghini.
Herber Diess, head of the core Volkswagen brand, said that Volkswagen had let its costs rise and "lost ground in terms of productivity."
Volkswagen Group, with its multiple brands, has more than 600,000 employees but the cuts will mainly fall on its 120,000-strong German work force.
The company cut a deal with its powerful worker representatives under which future investment would be in Germany and the reduction in staff would rely on voluntary departures such as early retirement, with no firings.
Top employee representative Bernd Osterloh said that "the next generation of electric vehicles will be made here in Germany, not abroad."
Other job cuts are foreseen in Brazil and Argentina.

[bluetoy]

Sounds more like they are using dieselgate as an excuse to cut workers. Shitty that guys who had nothing to do with this are losing their jobs because of it.

[ZR]

Could not agree more.

[Ponyryd]

Yup, but it's unavoidable it seems, time to pay the piper.

[Hutch]

I recently spoke with a guy driving a loaded to the nines new Dodge pick up with an ED. See him a time or two a week at the coffee shop, always leaves it idling outside. He, just like many diesel owners, thinks it was "made to idle" for extended periods of time and will stand up just fine as his daily driver that will see limited hwy miles and most certainly will never ever once be worked. He also believes in the ridiculous suggested oil change intervals, a prime candidate for premature emissions and pretty much everything else engine related issues.
I owned a number of diesels back in my towing days, miss having one dearly. Do know for my short run here and there, only pull a trailer a few times a year etc lifestyle, having one makes zero sense.

They should have a 5min idle shut down like what is on transport trucks. Are these pickups not able to perform a driver induced parked regen? We have the same kind of issues with the big stuff. Local driving, buses, courier and garbage trucks. None of them get hot enough and require more parked regens. Highway trucks isn't much of an issue.

[tulowd]

^
I don't see anywhere where it specifies an EPA-cheating device or software like the VWs were using, it simply states that the emissions parts may fail prematurely, causing higher emissions, which is true. All I'm saying is that 99% of the catalyst/dpf/egr failures on diesels is due to customers not using their vehicles as they were intended to be used, which is true of any brand of car.
Imagine for a minute starting your car, letting it run for ten minutes then shutting it off, do this 500 times then go for an etest, guess what-your cats are likely toast because they never got hot enough to burn off the fuel that your pushing into them, same thing rings true here, the parts work fine when new, but over time they become plugged with soot and ash and just don't work because they too cold to burn any of it off. I've seen it tons of times with Ford, GM and FCA diesels, it's all in how you use them, which is why most of them now have engine hour counters built into the cluster, bcm or PCM, so now I can go in and see if a truck has twice the hours as it should since it sits and idles. And if it returns for the same emissions issue Time and time again it will likely be denied any warranty because it's not supposed to idle that long.

The article clearly stated it was not the same kind of "cheat" as VW.
According to the lawsuit, more than 500,000 model year 2007 to 2012 diesel-engine Dodge Ram 2500 and 3500 trucks contain devices that allow the vehicles to emit nitrogen oxide at up to 14 times more than that allowed under federal law.

If its true, same shit different method. Guaranteed there is some truth to this, and other mfrs are also doing things outside the boundaries and likely the spirit.
Remember the Hyundai fuel mileage debacle, the GM ignition key issue, Ford 5.4 mortar spark plugs etc. Dollar is king. Anyone who knows racing knows that to win you simply don't get caught. Why would you think large scale automotive manufacturing is any different?

[5.4MarkVIII]

I don't think they purposely cheat to save money but most manufacturing means buying the cheapest part possible to build your product and a lot of off shore companies don't have any issues with bending the stats that their parts offer.
Nothing is done in house anymore North American manufacturing is just product assembling. And they are at the mercy of the crap they buy.

[Ponyryd]

They should have a 5min idle shut down like what is on transport trucks. Are these pickups not able to perform a driver induced parked regen? We have the same kind of issues with the big stuff. Local driving, buses, courier and garbage trucks. None of them get hot enough and require more parked regens. Highway trucks isn't much of an issue.

For the customer, regen is only possible at highway speeds, often a message will show on the dash that the dpf is partially full and a regen is required, many ignore that and come in telling us to fix it :)