Automakers to gearheads: We want to make it illegal to mod cars

[Speedtospare]

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/04/20/automakers-gearheads-car-repairs/

Anything for money. A cold day in hell before I let this pass.

[Spock]

Won't be a problem when the cars drive themselves....we are closer than you think

[StAnger]

Just don't buy their fucking garbage. Simple as that. I can hardly wait until March 23, 2018, because this shit will no longer be an issue. That's the day my license expires, and frankly with the advent of self driving cars, more and more geriatrics who's freshness date has long since passed, and the general attitude towards people who actually care about cars I'll be glad to give it up for a bicycle and a bus pass.

In the interest of full disclosure, I'd give up driving now; however, my current job involves a lot of driving.

[ZR]

Ok so heres the deal, you want me to buy your product but it's only mine to use as you see fit and I can't peek inside it...............FUCK OFF!!!

[Speedtospare]

Well said

[OldSchool]

Self drive cars = taxi

[ZR]

I dunno, been called crusty on a couple of occasions this week, may be true but one things for sure, no matter which co decides not to participate in this nonsense, they'll be selling me my next ride.

[Stephen06GT]

I think SEMA and their lobby groups will have a thing or three to say about this.

[StAnger]

I think SEMA and their lobby groups will have a thing or three to say about this.

I think the OEMs are in a position of "Fuck You" when it comes to SEMA and the consumer. I could be completely wrong though.

[bluetoy]

I guess we'll all have to buy pre 1996 cars. No obdII port for the soon to be mandatory insurance tracking devices and no self driving and can be modded.

[b1lk1]

I have no problem stopping most back yard hacks from working on their cars, they almost always do more damage than fixing. Same with letting just anyone tune. Let's face it, cars that can self park and self brake means they have now given actual steering/braking power to the computer.

Try buying parts for Hybrids, they have that channel cut off completely to the public (last I was in the business).

I am just gonna continue buying older cars and fixing them instead of a new headache. Just not worth the regulatory hassle to own a new car now-a-days.

[RedSN]

Let's face it, cars that can self park and self brake means they have now given actual steering/braking power to the computer
^^^very good points.

IMO, the automakers are setting the scene so when their technology fails they can just :shrug: "not our fault".
I have no problem with them voiding warranty's if tinkered with, but to say you CAN'T touch a thing on a piece of property you flat out own?
The natural progression to this of course is auto manufacturers strictly going into the leasing business and keeping ownership of the product.

[ZR]

Reminds me of when the street racing law first came on the scene. Bulk of peeps thought, screw the street racers, I don't do those kinds of things yet pounds are full of SUV's n mini vans. So you buy your new "I can't touch a dam thing" brand XYZ ride and just outta warranty the check engine light flashes. Just like your previous daily you figure, I'll scan it and order the sensor off Rock Auto only to remember you bought into the koolaid and can't even do that to your new ride.
Off to the dealer you trot for an anal raping to scan, repair and do god only knows what because you have no other options.
Keep in mind, you paid for this prick, who are they to say you can't touch it!!!

[b1lk1]

It's just like the household PC, you own the computer, but you only own the right to use the operating system (Windows, iOS, etc..) and that right can be revoked without you having a way to retaliate.

This is what automakers are getting at, they want their software sealed so it cannot be stolen and reproduced cheaply or modified in a way that makes them liable for damages in any way.

[Spock]

It's just like the household PC, you own the computer, but you only own the right to use the operating system (Windows, iOS, etc..) and that right can be revoked without you having a way to retaliate.

This is what automakers are getting at, they want their software sealed so it cannot be stolen and reproduced cheaply or modified in a way that makes them liable for damages in any way.

SCT & all the other "Tuners" better be ready to show they wrote a million lines of code or face copy write penalties.
Microsoft has done it with their products & so can the auto makers

Hell, I'm surprised the governmental agencies in north America haven't stepped in yet

[b1lk1]

Right now, the percentage of people messing with "their" software (manufacturers) is very very small and they have not caused a death on the public highway. First time that happens, ECM's will get locked down. It is simple enough to do.

I too am also amazed the automakers have not stepped in yet. Only thing they try and do is void warranties, but that is 50/50 at best for them.

[ZR]

Your starting down a slippery slope. Talking about mods to your own car, does altering stock timing not alter how the engine runs / how the mfg intended the engine to perform? How about a tps adjustment to make it idle n run better vs outta the box. Same with the headers your proposing, same with the springs your riding around on. If anyone thinks locking us out of the ECM we own is the extent of what they are looking at, dream on. It's a first step at getting our medling govt's hands further into our lives. Ever scanned, repaired and cleared a code on your own car without having a dealer do it?
Spinning it back to Microsoft and our paying for the privilege of using their software, constantly needs updates to plug the holes they left. Should we not be suing them for marketing a defective product. Guess what it's really time for is a computer lemon law..............they'd be fucked and Apple would run away with the entire show.
Personally, don't give a dam if my vehicle is full of "their software", they sold it to me and I'll mod it as I see fit, not them.
Time the rest of the world grew a pair and told these govt backed bullies where to shove it.

[StAnger]

The natural progression to this of course is auto manufacturers strictly going into the leasing business and keeping ownership of the product.

I don't think you're far off. If you listen to most car ads on the radio, they're pushing leasing vs financing or buying the vehicle outright.

[stangstevers]

lets say tomorrow, I'm not allowed to change any setting on the computer. The car is paid for, warranty is pretty much up. If I can spend $400 on a stupid handheld tuner, I can spend $1000 for a new computer. There's hardly any IP in controllers and sensors anyway, just replace Ford's shit with your own, it's just ladder logic. Now outside of code copywrite, if the transport ministry treats making changes as dangerous (and in many cases it can be, with these drive by wire systems), then we should all just buy pre 86 fox bodies.

But if I want to tell the computer I have 3:55's in the rear, I should be able to. Why would companies allow access to code that controls brakes via the OBDC port anyway?

[b1lk1]

.......

But if I want to tell the computer I have 3:55's in the rear, I should be able to. Why would companies allow access to code that controls brakes via the OBDC port anyway?

It's called troubleshooting.

Also, there is really nothing to worry about here unless you are running a very late model car. Anything OBD I will be either exempt or unenforceable. Most cars up to 2011 would still have workarounds.

Just remember, you never own the software inside those computers. Honestly, car companies have wanted this for decades, but it hasn't been a major safety issue. Now that you CAN control steering and brakes VIA OBD ports, THEY should lock them down, but they could also license certain tuners to release tunes and such. Frankly, there's ALOT of people out there trying to tune cars that don't belong doing it.

As far as OBD I Mustangs, you can even buy an aftermarket computer without Ford's coding, but the coding on the aftermarket computer will still not belong to you, you are only granted the rights to use it by whoever sold you the computer.

ZR, you are so far off base with your Crapple example. Apple PC's are not hacked as much because hackers would rather have access to the hundreds of millions of PC's compared to the millions of Apple PC's. It has been proven time and time again that Apple's OS is the easiest to hack. Windows is second safest before Linux. If you don't want to be hacked get a Linux PC. They have hacking contests every year and Apple PC's are always the first to be hacked. Read more on that one. Besides that, Apple also makes it near impossible to do ANYTHING inside the computer. Can't change video cards UNLESS it is an Apple twice as expensive version. Apple DOES have a stranglehold on their software and hardware, just most people don't want to see that when they are paying 2-3 times as much for the same hardware that's in a Windows PC.

This subject is blown out of proportion. If you think they can lock tuners out you got another thing coming. I'm sure they will try, but there is virtually no way to do it. They will void your warranty and you will be held liable in an accident if you are found to be "tuning", but how is that any different from current laws? To be perfectly blunt, I have not paid for Windows "rights" for at least the last 5 years. Windows 7 was cracked BEFORE it was released. Same thing will happen with car tuners.

Only way for them to prevent access is to remove the OBD port completely, but it would take little for someone to figure out how to wire one in. This is impossible for them to do.

If you don't like the rules then don't buy one. Plain and simple. Everyone can jump up and down and stomp their feet, but you all keep buying latest tech because it is better, faster , ect.. If you don't want the headaches, plenty of older cars with no computer systems in them out there, or you could always LS swap anything and run an aftermarket stand alone engine management system. Oh yeah, you don't own that software either.

[onDjuice]

Have to side with ZR on this one.. That slippery slope starts hard to stop..

[b1lk1]

As long as there is a diagnostic connector somewhere on the car we will always be able to hack our way in.

You guys do realize most 2008+ sports/high end cars already have a "black box" that records the last 60 seconds of what you were doing and that can be used as evidence in court against you? You also do not have the ability to manipulate this function in any way as well, it's hidden and blocked from access.

[ZR]

It's build into the air bag control module. Exact reason I feel it's an invasion of our privacy when the govt plugs into "my computer" for etesting.

[RedSN]

As long as there is a diagnostic connector somewhere on the car we will always be able to hack our way in.
...not have the ability to manipulate this function in any way as well, it's hidden and blocked from access.
If I was an automotive engineer I would hide the ECU in the same spot as that black box then.

[ZR]

You know full well that would take a 46 year study first. ;)

[RedSN]

Study is already underway for self-driving cars....

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/self-driving-car-collisions-tracked-by-california-1.3069113

[ZR]

Dammit, never argue with an engineer.

[Amsoil Guy]

Dammit, never argue with an engineer.

Just swear and curse at them. Never argue with them.

[ZR]

Done and done. ;)

[Tailites]

imo...the whole thing will never fly...

SEMA will try to save itself...how many jobs will be lost in the aftermarket?...if the powers that be

lets just call them what they are...control freaks>>>$$$$$$$$$$$$$...get their way...

btw...I love technology...I really do...but whats happening is technology is being used as a sword to

control the masses...cars that drive themselves?...it belongs to me but Im not allowed to look inside it?

so when theres a computer glitch & your car takes out a family on the highway...

whos liable...????

[b1lk1]

imo...the whole thing will never fly...

SEMA will try to save itself...how many jobs will be lost in the aftermarket?...if the powers that be

lets just call them what they are...control freaks>>>$$$$$$$$$$$$$...get their way...

btw...I love technology...I really do...but whats happening is technology is being used as a sword to

control the masses...cars that drive themselves?...it belongs to me but Im not allowed to look inside it?

so when theres a computer glitch & your car takes out a family on the highway...

whos liable...????

Computer glitches have already killed many people on the highway. Mechanical glitches have killed exponentially more. I give it 30-40 years and we won't be allowed on public roads without an autonomous car.

[Tailites]

I give it 30-40 years and we won't be allowed on public roads without an autonomous car.

wonder if legislators will only let us drive our hobby cars to "sanctioned" events on sundays?

[RedSN]

^^^most of them are already trailer-queens anyway.

[b1lk1]

wonder if legislators will only let us drive our hobby cars to "sanctioned" events on sundays?

Maybe if you are one of said legislators or a family member, but honestly, not sure how they will let us use them as the autonomoids they give us will be unlikely able to handle more than a few people and groceries for weight.