Heat Pumps - I have Q's

[ChickenLips]

Does anyone here have a heat pump?

Does it adequately heat in the dead of winter?

What is the electricity consumption?

Looking for some local knowledge in our common conditions

[92redragtop]

Got one installed first week of July 2022 after our furnace died. There is a heat pump that does double duty (heat/cool) and a small NG furnace that also acts as a fan mostly. I think we had a few days of "auxillary" heat in January/February this past winter when the NG kicked in (after I enabled that in January but not sure it was really needed). I keep the house (~2800 sq ft incl. finished basement space) at 22C daytime year round and 18-20C overnight in winter so equipment runs full-time; and have a HRV for fresh air exchange.

I haven't looked at the actual KW usage and I don't pay attention to TOD usage but same period 12-month comparison of statement total is a difference of about $250 higher for Hydro One after the heat pump/new furnace was installed. I'll have to check the reduction in my Enbridge cost for the same YoY period but that is down much more for net savings. There is minimal incremental cost for NG in January/February (few days), fireplace (mostly for dogs drying out/warming up after snow/rain), and just water heater and BBQ rest of year or summer, respectively. Just wish all the non-NG taxes/fees on Enbridge billing are taken away as they are generally higher than my NG usage now.

[ChickenLips]

I'm pretty cheap on heat. I turn off the furnace overnight, even in dead of winter. I'll run for an hour or two first thing and then either turn off or drop temp when I'm moving around. I don't have AC and simply use a fan when things are stupid hot. That was 3-4 days this past summer. I pay attention to time of day for electrical usage, laundry after hours. I should do my welding after hours too. My furnace is a tank. First gen high efficiency. No circuit boards and a heat exchanger that can shrug off a bullet. My biggest untapped gain looks to be tankless water heating as I'm solo here and keeping even a smaller tank hot is costing me.

[92redragtop]

Sounds like there's no point for you unless you were were replacing your furnace - and even then, it would likely only benefit whomever lives in the house after you. If you run your house cooler in winter then these heat pumps would likely work for you (that's based on last winter's temps).

[cf105arrow]

I’m also interested in getting a heat pump to replace my aging ng furnace. Any info and knowledge in this area would be helpful. I live in Caledon.

[ChickenLips]

https://youtu.be/onmLrUh2cHU?si=aNvd5xhXPXZFNR7F

[Ontariomystic]

Natural Gas Furnace > Heat Pump any day. Factor in equipment cost, energy consumption, future repair costs, fluctuating heat output.

[ChickenLips]

I'm not crazy about having a single energy source, electricity. Combine that with a smart meter and a thermostat with external controllability (wifi/Bluetooth) and you have a system that outside forces can tinker with or shut off.

I'm currently on the grid and use gas, water, electricity from external suppliers. When I eventually move top of my list will be grid independence to as high a degree as possible. I could see a heat pump as part of a new build when the excavator is already on site and you've got provision for off grid power, and maybe a wood boiler.

[92redragtop]

Natural Gas Furnace > Heat Pump any day. Factor in equipment cost, energy consumption, future repair costs, fluctuating heat output.

I think that is the case today but wouldn't the subsidies offset a lot of that in today's lower volume environment but as the volume of installed heat pumps increase you'd get scale economies on both initial cost as well as replacement parts and repairs (typical product life cycle cost curve)? NG furnaces are only cheap today because of the volume installed and gas subsidies?

[ChickenLips]

I think that is the case today but wouldn't the subsidies offset a lot of that in today's lower volume environment but as the volume of installed heat pumps increase you'd get scale economies on both initial cost as well as replacement parts and repairs (typical product life cycle cost curve)? NG furnaces are only cheap today because of the volume installed and gas subsidies?

I don't recall subsidies for installing gas furnaces, yet they gained market share.

[92redragtop]

Any kind of gas we take out of the ground in Canada has been subsidized by taxpayers from the early days to today. Also, haven't there been subsidies/rebates for years to upgrade to newer high efficiency furnaces? Been seeing these offers for the last 20 years but ours was already "high efficiency" at the time so didn't make sense for the out of pocket portion.

[5.4MarkVIII]

Pretty much all energy has been subsidized at some point.

[92redragtop]

And for some reason continues to be even after we've been pumping oil and gas for over 100 years. You'd think the industry doesn't need our tax dollars by now.

[ChickenLips]

what % of a subsidy do you figure is returned via kick back. I can't figure why subsidies would exist on profitable ventures otherwise.

[5.4MarkVIII]

And for some reason continues to be even after we've been pumping oil and gas for over 100 years. You'd think the industry doesn't need our tax dollars by now.

Don’t disagree. Should also be removed from electricity and every other business that takes bail outs and funnels the money to outside sources. Government should have no business in business.

[92redragtop]

Don’t disagree. Should also be removed from electricity and every other business that takes bail outs and funnels the money to outside sources. Government should have no business in business.

Yup - same goes for cattle farming industry. Dairy, beef, etc should be market based and priced without taxpayer subsidies.

[ChickenLips]

imagine that, a free market where people's spending determines what survives. Nah, that'll never work. We need a handfull of bureaucrats deciding what's best for millions.

[ChickenLips]

https://youtu.be/GhAKMAcmJFg?si=0W52iPyPaw6rZR1H

[5.4MarkVIII]

Yup - same goes for cattle farming industry. Dairy, beef, etc should be market based and priced without taxpayer subsidies.

Agree. I have lived most of my life in rural area surrounded by farms.

If seen first hand the kind of money farmers make as they hand farms worth millions to their kids. New houses new cars new tractors all the toys year after year. But every time something seems not ideal. Then government is there with handouts.

[RedSN]

I have intentionally stayed out of this thread, because IMO, the OP got the answer he was fishing for in post #7

Natural Gas Furnace > Heat Pump any day.
/thread

But WTF is this?

I have lived most of my life in rural area surrounded by farms.
If seen first hand the kind of money farmers make as they hand farms worth millions to their kids. New houses new cars new tractors all the toys year after year.
This anecdote certainly wasn’t my experience. As the son of a farmer, I did NOT inherit millions. NOR did we have new houses, cars, tractors, or ANY toys.

[5.4MarkVIII]

the conversation evolved, as they usualy do. and the discussion turned to government subsidies. 92redragtop said subsidies should be removed from farmers. I agreed and gave an example why. do you assume a simple example should fit every single scenario? I am also from a farming family all that's left in the family is the 3 acers my family have, it blead dry for years and there was never a dime from the government to help out. only regulation and red tape that made things more expensive and difficult for the little guy, while helping the big guys. as the same time I've grown up alongside those benefiting. I've talked fist hand to the dairy farmer. who openly said he buys land, new equipment yearly and builds barns specifically so his farm doesn't make a profit. so he doesn't have to pay takes, and can claim subsidies, I've had first hand conversations with pig and egg farmers who do the same thing, Cronyism and corporatism exists in the farming industry just like any other and its specifically designed limit competitions. the same reason small business are closing down at a record pace while big big stores thrive. small farms cant make ends meat and the bigger ones are getting handouts to make money.

[Laffs]

Farm subsidies account for less than 15% of total farm receipts across the industry. Most of the subsidies relate (at least used to kinda removed from it now) to innovation and enhancement (equipment or land related) so it's not entirely free money. There are subsidy programs that are in place to "top up" farmers bottom lines so I guess if someone wanted to write down new equipment and buildings every year to get these they could but last I checked it was a premium based model so not entirely free and max yearly top up was like a million which Idk if you guys have priced out large AG equipment recently that doesn't get you that far and you would still have to purchase it first and hope you get topped.

Subsidies are important because of your last point small farms are getting HAMMERED by rising costs, land values, and the fact legit no one wants to be a farmer anymore cuz for all we say about having toys and trucks it's a fucking rough job. As for letting free market dictate, we like to say that until we price race ourselves to the bottom and are completely dependent on foreign production then when they raise prices scream "why don't we make anything here" among other glaring issues.

Also, have a heat pump/mini split for my garage, it's great for zone/single space but no chance in hell I'd do my whole house with one.

[ChickenLips]

I have intentionally stayed out of this thread, because IMO, the OP got the answer he was fishing for in post #7

/thread

Yeah, that was just an opinion that agreed with my bias. 92 Ragtop offered some experience. I can't say I got a solid answer in either direction but leaned towards doing nothing and keeping what I have (high efficiency gas) despite probably qualifying for "free" heat pump.


But WTF is this?

This anecdote certainly wasn’t my experience. As the son of a farmer, I did NOT inherit millions. NOR did we have new houses, cars, tractors, or ANY toys.

I'll guess it wasn't a dairy farm

[ChickenLips]

Also, have a heat pump/mini split for my garage, it's great for zone/single space but no chance in hell I'd do my whole house with one.

real world experience is the feedback i was looking for (and suspected).

my gut tells me ground source or water source heat pump as part of a new build might make sense. I'm skeptical a retrofit will work out unless there's cheap electricity for the life of the installation, especially air source.

[92redragtop]

Also, have a heat pump/mini split for my garage, it's great for zone/single space but no chance in hell I'd do my whole house with one.


This will be our second winter with a cold climate HP for the house and so far it's been great and cheaper on a usage basis. I haven't layered on an amortization on the operating cost as yet but time will tell on lifecycle cost of ownership (mechanical)