My deal made it on the interwebz

[Zee]

I spent the last year working on solidifying this deal.
Spent countless hours with Korea to justify building it and even more hours trying to get through the Government corruption ..ahem... red tape to give Hydrogen refueling a chance. This is going to kickstart quite a few things across Canada proving Hydrogen vehicles are a much better alternative.
When I first started with Hyundai Canada, my goal was to initiate their Hydrogen focus and get the wheels turning - everyone laughed and said "yeah, okay, sure"
I've got a few more deals on the go which should be BIG, one of which should materialize by Q3 - fingers crossed!!


https://www.h2-view.com/story/charbone-hydrogen-announces-plans-of-promoting-hydrogen-mobility-in-canada/


Canadian-based Charbone Hydrogen is leasing three Hyundai NEXO hydrogen fuel cell vehicles to promote and demonstrate green hydrogen mobility in Montreal and wider Canada.

Set to be delivered by FOSS National Leasing in the next three to four months, Charbone has said the vehicles will be able to fill up at its hydrogen refuelling station, currently under construction at the Sorel-Tracy Quebec facility.

Read more: Canada to benefit from new partnership aiming to supply green hydrogen to commercial and industrial customers

The company has said it intends to announce further refuelling facilities across Canada, in addition to a proposed corridor between Quebec City, Canada, and Detroit, Michigan, US, where Charbone has announced future hydropower plant acquisitions.


32954

[MUSTANGWOP]

Great work, congratulations!!

[ChickenLips]

I assume hydrogen addresses the range problem of electric/battery vehicles. What's the energy input to make hydrogen as compared to energy input to produce gasoline?

Genuine question. Can hydrogen fuel cost be competitive with petroleum based fuels?

[mavrrrick]

Congrats!!! I'd be on board with this.

[Zee]

I assume hydrogen addresses the range problem of electric/battery vehicles. What's the energy input to make hydrogen as compared to energy input to produce gasoline?

Genuine question. Can hydrogen fuel cost be competitive with petroleum based fuels?

The range depends on what bar the station is. At 300 bar, it cuts the range of the vehicle by 50% - BUT, it only takes less than 5minutes to refuel. Cost for the station is about 3 million, the government has set aside SOME subsidies but its like pulling teeth.
In terms of the mechanics, they still have an electric motor and a battery stack (primarily used to store energy from regen braking and to power accessories) but its much smaller than the EV counterpart.

Two different inputs to produce hydrogen... Thermal processes like natural gas reforming and electrolysis.
Oil and gas companies are now starting to produce tons of hydrogen, we are starting to see a massive push in AB towards Hydrogen vs EV.
Check this out: https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/our-natural-resources/energy-sources-distribution/producing-hydrogn-canada/23151

They'll need to scale things up quite a bit to reduce cost however, our government on a Federal and Provincial level are not letting that happen... due to obvious financial implications on their pocket.
None of these companies, and you can mark my words will be hitting that ambitious and rubbish 2030 net zero target - NONE. Not while maintaining integrity of the infrastructure.

[Zee]

Congrats!!! I'd be on board with this.

Thank you good Sir!
It isnt feasible right now because the initial cost is way too much... but once this gets scaled up and costs reduced - it will be a much better alternative.

[92redragtop]

Congrats! Sounds like a great initiative and hopefully goes well through the base case.

[5.4MarkVIII]

If the way it was described years ago. In terms of, we already produce massive amounts of hydrogen while making other stuff and the “exhaust” is oxygen and water, is correct Then this is a no brainer. Wonder why it doesn’t get the same government support as all the other ev stuff.

[Ponyryd]

The range depends on what bar the station is. At 300 bar, it cuts the range of the vehicle by 50% - BUT, it only takes less than 5minutes to refuel. Cost for the station is about 3 million, the government has set aside SOME subsidies but its like pulling teeth.
In terms of the mechanics, they still have an electric motor and a battery stack (primarily used to store energy from regen braking and to power accessories) but its much smaller than the EV counterpart.

Two different inputs to produce hydrogen... Thermal processes like natural gas reforming and electrolysis.
Oil and gas companies are now starting to produce tons of hydrogen, we are starting to see a massive push in AB towards Hydrogen vs EV.
Check this out: https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/our-natural-resources/energy-sources-distribution/producing-hydrogn-canada/23151

They'll need to scale things up quite a bit to reduce cost however, our government on a Federal and Provincial level are not letting that happen... due to obvious financial implications on their pocket.
None of these companies, and you can mark my words will be hitting that ambitious and rubbish 2030 net zero target - NONE. Not while maintaining integrity of the infrastructure.

This is the obvious choice for the future, but for some odd reason governments would rather fund EV infrastructure and “renewables”.
I thought the net zero target was 2035-either way I knew it would never happen, just more useless blabber from the “officials”.

[Zee]

If the way it was described years ago. In terms of, we already produce massive amounts of hydrogen while making other stuff and the “exhaust” is oxygen and water, is correct Then this is a no brainer. Wonder why it doesn’t get the same government support as all the other ev stuff.

This is all due to corruption.
Hydrogen fuel cells before were not stable and were not that reliable. Now, its a different story... the technology has evolved so much.
The EV's were a short term solution and caught on, mark my words in the next 5 years cities in Canada will experience rolling black outs if we continue to implement the EV roll out the way they're forcing it onto everyone.
The start up costs for EV's are much cheaper, all the politicians are heavily invested financially in the different sectors which support the EV market... they will never want it to change.

[Zee]

This is the obvious choice for the future, but for some odd reason governments would rather fund EV infrastructure and “renewables”.
I thought the net zero target was 2035-either way I knew it would never happen, just more useless blabber from the “officials”.

Its all blabber.
Not a single organization has hit their renewables target so far, they arent even close lol

[Old Fart]

Thinking out loud... would the exhaust water from a hydrogen engine cause ice build up on roads?

[ChickenLips]

Solar and wind to replace coal, oil and gas sounds great in theory but hasn't worked out. Look at Germany.

Hydrogen sounds great but "feels" the same.

I'm all for new tech, but only when it improves on old tech. Petroleum is cheap and plentiful. It's also not finite. They found that using algae and pressure oil can be produced in about 3 years. Word choice matters and labelling petroleum as fossil fuel reinforces the concept it's finite, when in fact it is renewable.

Hydrogen sounds great, especially as a universal fuel, cutting back on various fuel grades, diesel etc. Using the exhaust water for irrigation and waste heat for industrial processes also sounds great. I don't see it as viable unless there's a cheap energy input to create hydrogen, which is the opposite of what we have. We have cheap plentiful energy now in the form of petroleum products, coal etc that's being throttled and demonized.

I'm all for research and improvement to hydrogen tech. My only caveat is I don't want to pay for it. If it's competitive, let the market decide.

I googled "the problem with hydrogen vehicles"

Here's an excerpt from one of the top results.


Hydrogen’s efficiency problem
The reason why hydrogen is inefficient is because the energy must move from wire to gas to wire in order to power a car. This is sometimes called the energy vector transition.

Let’s take 100 watts of electricity produced by a renewable source such as a wind turbine. To power an FCEV, that energy has to be converted into hydrogen, possibly by passing it through water (the electrolysis process). This is around 75% energy-efficient, so around one-quarter of the electricity is automatically lost.

The hydrogen produced has to be compressed, chilled and transported to the hydrogen station, a process that is around 90% efficient. Once inside the vehicle, the hydrogen needs to be converted into electricity, which is 60% efficient. Finally the electricity used in the motor to move the vehicle is is around 95% efficient. Put together, only 38% of the original electricity – 38 watts out of 100 – are used.


With electric vehicles, the energy runs on wires all the way from the source to the car. The same 100 watts of power from the same turbine loses about 5% of efficiency in this journey through the grid (in the case of hydrogen, I’m assuming the conversion takes place onsite at the wind farm).


Energy efficiency in electric vehicles.
You lose a further 10% of energy from charging and discharging the lithium-ion battery, plus another 5% from using the electricity to make the vehicle move. So you are down to 80 watts – as shown in the figure opposite.

In other words, the hydrogen fuel cell requires double the amount of energy. To quote BMW: “The overall efficiency in the power-to-vehicle-drive energy chain is therefore only half the level of [an electric vehicle].”

[5.4MarkVIII]

Thinking out loud... would the exhaust water from a hydrogen engine cause ice build up on roads?

Interesting note. Maybe use it for cooling. Or have a water tank you need to empty instead of a fill up.

[Zee]

Interesting note. Maybe use it for cooling. Or have a water tank you need to empty instead of a fill up.

I'm running our Nexo right now, on idle its producing more water vapor but under throttle it does produce the water. That is one of the issues for Canadian winters however, surface temperature on the roads is generally a lot more. But you're right, that is one flaw.
GM actually came out with a system where it's almost like a catch can for hydrogen vehicles, produces fresh water which you can drink.

[Zee]

Solar and wind to replace coal, oil and gas sounds great in theory but hasn't worked out. Look at Germany.

Hydrogen sounds great but "feels" the same.

I'm all for new tech, but only when it improves on old tech. Petroleum is cheap and plentiful. It's also not finite. They found that using algae and pressure oil can be produced in about 3 years. Word choice matters and labelling petroleum as fossil fuel reinforces the concept it's finite, when in fact it is renewable.

Hydrogen sounds great, especially as a universal fuel, cutting back on various fuel grades, diesel etc. Using the exhaust water for irrigation and waste heat for industrial processes also sounds great. I don't see it as viable unless there's a cheap energy input to create hydrogen, which is the opposite of what we have. We have cheap plentiful energy now in the form of petroleum products, coal etc that's being throttled and demonized.

I'm all for research and improvement to hydrogen tech. My only caveat is I don't want to pay for it. If it's competitive, let the market decide.

I googled "the problem with hydrogen vehicles"

Here's an excerpt from one of the top results.


Hydrogen’s efficiency problem
The reason why hydrogen is inefficient is because the energy must move from wire to gas to wire in order to power a car. This is sometimes called the energy vector transition.

Let’s take 100 watts of electricity produced by a renewable source such as a wind turbine. To power an FCEV, that energy has to be converted into hydrogen, possibly by passing it through water (the electrolysis process). This is around 75% energy-efficient, so around one-quarter of the electricity is automatically lost.

The hydrogen produced has to be compressed, chilled and transported to the hydrogen station, a process that is around 90% efficient. Once inside the vehicle, the hydrogen needs to be converted into electricity, which is 60% efficient. Finally the electricity used in the motor to move the vehicle is is around 95% efficient. Put together, only 38% of the original electricity – 38 watts out of 100 – are used.


With electric vehicles, the energy runs on wires all the way from the source to the car. The same 100 watts of power from the same turbine loses about 5% of efficiency in this journey through the grid (in the case of hydrogen, I’m assuming the conversion takes place onsite at the wind farm).


Energy efficiency in electric vehicles.
You lose a further 10% of energy from charging and discharging the lithium-ion battery, plus another 5% from using the electricity to make the vehicle move. So you are down to 80 watts – as shown in the figure opposite.

In other words, the hydrogen fuel cell requires double the amount of energy. To quote BMW: “The overall efficiency in the power-to-vehicle-drive energy chain is therefore only half the level of [an electric vehicle].”

Lots of energy companies end up producing a massive surplus, which they end up putting towards Hydrogen production.
Vast majority of companies around the globe use methane reforming for hydrogen production, what we're focusing on is Hydrogen through electrolysis.
I agree, its not as efficient however, for a gasoline consumer ... switching to a FCEV is a much better transition than an EV.

[5.4MarkVIII]

I'm running our Nexo right now, on idle its producing more water vapor but under throttle it does produce the water. That is one of the issues for Canadian winters however, surface temperature on the roads is generally a lot more. But you're right, that is one flaw.
GM actually came out with a system where it's almost like a catch can for hydrogen vehicles, produces fresh water which you can drink.

Oh great I’m gonna start getting calls to service the fresh water system in cars. Lol.

Seems like a small deal. Depending on the amount of water produced per mile. Tank gets full. Pull off on the shoulder hit a button to empty the tank. 30 seconds later continue on your way.

I’m sure the government will find a way to make it complicated.

[ChickenLips]

Lots of energy companies end up producing a massive surplus, which they end up putting towards Hydrogen production.
Vast majority of companies around the globe use methane reforming for hydrogen production, what we're focusing on is Hydrogen through electrolysis.
I agree, its not as efficient however, for a gasoline consumer ... switching to a FCEV is a much better transition than an EV.

Whether or not EV, FCEV, IC, horse & buggy, let the market decide. I have issue with manipulation of the free market. Millions of consumers collective decision making beats one 'elite" decider. Consumers reap the consequences of their decisions, an elite does not.

The real kicker is when an elite decides it's the average consumer that foots the bill.

I have no issue with any tech. If FCEV folks were hiring I'd apply, I'd even shill their virtues if paid enough. If paid even more I might even believe it.

[Zee]

Whether or not EV, FCEV, IC, horse & buggy, let the market decide. I have issue with manipulation of the free market. Millions of consumers collective decision making beats one 'elite" decider. Consumers reap the consequences of their decisions, an elite does not.

The real kicker is when an elite decides it's the average consumer that foots the bill.

I have no issue with any tech. If FCEV folks were hiring I'd apply, I'd even shill their virtues if paid enough. If paid even more I might even believe it.

I completely agree with you.
The tobacco industry funded research from the 60's and 70's is further proof that studies and numbers can be manipulated very easily to further particular narratives.
The same is done with the Electric Vehicles.
At the end of the day why is it that there are 5 different companies in Ontario which have working 350barr Hydrogen refueling stations but the government refuses to allow them to offer Hydrogen to the public? There is no good excuse except lack of personal financial gain.

Unfortunately I have to drink the koolaid at times ... from an OEM stand point lol

[Zee]

Oh great I’m gonna start getting calls to service the fresh water system in cars. Lol.

Seems like a small deal. Depending on the amount of water produced per mile. Tank gets full. Pull off on the shoulder hit a button to empty the tank. 30 seconds later continue on your way.

I’m sure the government will find a way to make it complicated.

I'm trying to sign up for the new tender system which the Federal government has decided to use for its future Request For Proposals.
Just a simple .. SIMPLE sign up is made a million times more complicated because they want to see documents from our head office in Korea... wtf? Why? They literally make EVERYTHING 10 times more complicated.

[mavrrrick]

Question… can you convert gas engine to hydrogen? Maybe a stupid question, but what do I know.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ChickenLips]

Oh great I’m gonna start getting calls to service the fresh water system in cars. Lol.

Seems like a small deal. Depending on the amount of water produced per mile. Tank gets full. Pull off on the shoulder hit a button to empty the tank. 30 seconds later continue on your way.

I’m sure the government will find a way to make it complicated.

They'll find a way to tax it


I completely agree with you.
The tobacco industry funded research from the 60's and 70's is further proof that studies and numbers can be manipulated very easily to further particular narratives.
The same is done with the Electric Vehicles.
At the end of the day why is it that there are 5 different companies in Ontario which have working 350barr Hydrogen refueling stations but the government refuses to allow them to offer Hydrogen to the public? There is no good excuse except lack of personal financial gain.

Unfortunately I have to drink the koolaid at times ... from an OEM stand point lol


I'm trying to sign up for the new tender system which the Federal government has decided to use for its future Request For Proposals.
Just a simple .. SIMPLE sign up is made a million times more complicated because they want to see documents from our head office in Korea... wtf? Why? They literally make EVERYTHING 10 times more complicated.

No one is above bribery. Especially scientists and politicians we're groomed to trust who're fronted by professional liars, the media.

Why "Unfortunately", you're getting your small slice of the pie. We all have our price, and mine is admittedly low.

[Zee]

Question… can you convert gas engine to hydrogen? Maybe a stupid question, but what do I know.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You definitely can but the costs are astronomical... almost like doing an NA build on a 2v lol

[Zee]

They'll find a way to tax it





No one is above bribery. Especially scientists and politicians we're groomed to trust who're fronted by professional liars, the media.

Why "Unfortunately", you're getting your small slice of the pie. We all have our price, and mine is admittedly low.

"Everyone has a price"
haha

[hammerhead]

Canada is rich in minerals to produce EV's and perhaps the reason for the lack of interest in hydrogen. There is a fuel cell company in BC it's coming but slow. I read about the cost of refueling stations for hydrogen and it mentioned fewer would be needed as opposed to many more electric charging stations almost making it equal in cost. In 2024 Toyota will have a hydrogen prototype in 24hrs LeMans. Great thread!

[hammerhead]

Here's a story I read a few weeks ago and have been following for about 10years —Porsche announces production of e-fuel

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/20/porsche-starts-production-of-e-fuel-that-could-provide-gas-alternative.html#:~:text=Officials%20say%20e%2Dfue ls%20can,fuel%20produced%20at%20the%20site.

[Zee]

Canada is rich in minerals to produce EV's and perhaps the reason for the lack of interest in hydrogen. There is a fuel cell company in BC it's coming but slow. I read about the cost of refueling stations for hydrogen and it mentioned fewer would be needed as opposed to many more electric charging stations almost making it equal in cost. In 2024 Toyota will have a hydrogen prototype in 24hrs LeMans. Great thread!

They're going to unveil that car at the Hydrogen conference in June! I'm super pumped to see it!
The refueling time is huge when compared to an EV... there's no way you can get 300 km of range with 5 minutes of charging.
From what I know Ballard Power is the largest but i'm sure there's lots of other companies on the uptick seeing the opportunities. After Toyota announced it was heading towards Hydrogen and not Electric - the industry was shocked.
There's a few things we have in the pipeline which I cant talk about, but you'll be hearing some big news towards the end of the year :)

[YZFMax]

Congrats and thanks for sharing.

[RedSN]

Check out this thread where we did a bit of a deep dive including all the pros and cons: http://www.torontomustangclub.ca/forums/showthread.php?20166-My-deal-made-it-on-the-interwebz
These cars dont work as well in rural areas. I think the best for rural areas are ice/electric hybrids. For the NEXO, if a Hydrogen station has a 350 bar pump ... you're only going to get half the range.


Heres a diagram which explains the drive train:
http://www.torontomustangclub.ca/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=33646&d=1677775534

putting this back here (instead of the "what did you buy" thread).

Holy shit! 70MPa of pressure in the tanks? Is that right? That's over 10,000 psi !!!!

LOL, i get nervous when my compressor goes over 130 psi

[hammerhead]

that was always my concern with hydrogen...

[Zee]

that was always my concern with hydrogen...

Transport Canada let me load the cars on rail with half a tank and they're allowed to be inside the building at the QC auto show, so I dont feel the risk is there.
We did a study on this, since Hydrogen is 16 times lighter than air in the event of a tank puncture .. the gas instantaneously dissipates into the atmosphere. All the tanks go through extreme crash and ballistics testing. They're lined with plastic but the exterior is carbonfiber.

[5.4MarkVIII]

putting this back here (instead of the "what did you buy" thread).

LOL, i get nervous when my compressor goes over 130 psi

My bad I got asking questions and didn’t pay attention to the thread.


I only turn my compressor up to 130 when the ugga dugga gun needs to hit those extra ft lbs.

That’s the last step before the hot wrench comes out.

[5.4MarkVIII]

Transport Canada let me load the cars on rail with half a tank and they're allowed to be inside the building at the QC auto show, so I dont feel the risk is there.
We did a study on this, since Hydrogen is 16 times lighter than air in the event of a tank puncture .. the gas instantaneously dissipates into the atmosphere. All the tanks go through extreme crash and ballistics testing. They're lined with plastic but the exterior is carbonfiber.

Thanks for the info. It’s interesting. And more interesting that it’s being ignored by the media and the government. Makes me wonder if all this talk about “big oil” should be about “big electric”

[ChickenLips]

It was the O2 tank that blew up on Apollo 13, not the hydrogen……

[Zee]

Thanks for the info. It’s interesting. And more interesting that it’s being ignored by the media and the government. Makes me wonder if all this talk about “big oil” should be about “big electric”

No worries, let me know if you want to know more :)
The media wont talk about it, news outlets wont report it, but if we decide to put 5 charging stations in a mall parking lott - it can be all over the news.
Its good to have a variety of different options available for people. However, ICE engines have proven time and time again to be far superior in literally every scenario lol.
We're trying to pedal 10 steps back to move 10 steps forward here.
Can you tell I dont like drinking kool aid?

[RedSN]

However, ICE engines have proven time and time again to be far superior in literally every scenario lol.

Then why this fuel cell car?

[ChickenLips]

It’s a great way to grab a fistful of climate change handouts.

[True Blue]

However, ICE engines have proven time and time again to be far superior in literally every scenario lol.
We're trying to pedal 10 steps back to move 10 steps forward here.
Can you tell I dont like drinking kool aid?

Exactly!

http://www.torontomustangclub.ca/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=33646&d=1677775534

^^^^ This is going to be as reliable as an ICE vehicle?

[hammerhead]

Transport Canada let me load the cars on rail with half a tank and they're allowed to be inside the building at the QC auto show, so I dont feel the risk is there.
We did a study on this, since Hydrogen is 16 times lighter than air in the event of a tank puncture .. the gas instantaneously dissipates into the atmosphere. All the tanks go through extreme crash and ballistics testing. They're lined with plastic but the exterior is carbonfiber.

it sounds like I can't already afford one LOL - it also sounds like more government regulation on having tanks inspected at regular intervals at the owners exspense —sometimes I'm glad I'm old! haha

[hammerhead]

No worries, let me know if you want to know more :)
The media wont talk about it, news outlets wont report it, but if we decide to put 5 charging stations in a mall parking lott - it can be all over the news.
Its good to have a variety of different options available for people. However, ICE engines have proven time and time again to be far superior in literally every scenario lol.
We're trying to pedal 10 steps back to move 10 steps forward here.
Can you tell I dont like drinking kool aid?

Porshe has also developed a new full for ICE that i believe is heavy based with hydrogen that burns very clean:

Porsche and several partners have started production of a climate neutral “e-fuel” aimed at replacing gasoline in vehicles with traditional internal combustion engines.

The German automaker, owned by Volkswagen
, said Tuesday that a pilot plant in Chile started commercial production of the alternative fuel. By mid-decade, Porsche is planning to produce millions of gallons of the e-fuel.

Porsche expects to initially use the fuel in motor sports and at its performance experience centers, followed by other uses in the years to come. Ultimately, the plan is for the fuel to be sold to oil companies and others for distribution to consumers.

E-fuels are a type of synthetic methanol produced by a complex process using water, hydrogen and carbon dioxide. Companies say they enable the nearly CO2-neutral operation of gas-powered engines. Vehicles would still need to use oil to lubricate the engine.

In the pilot phase, Porsche expects to produce around 130,000 liters (34,342 U.S. gallons) of the e-fuel. Plans are to expand that to about 55 million liters (14.5 million U.S. gallons) by mid-decade, and around 550 million liters (145.3 million U.S. gallons) roughly two years later.

The Chilean plant was initially announced with Porsche in late 2020, when the automaker said it would invest $24 million in the development of the plant and e-fuels. Partners include Chilean operating company Highly Innovative Fuels, Siemens’ renewable energy unit and others.

Porsche IPO completed with $72 billion valuationWATCH NOW
VIDEO02:42
Porsche IPO completed with $72 billion valuation
Company officials say e-fuels can act like gasoline, allowing vehicle owners a more environmentally friendly way to drive. They could also use the same fueling infrastructure as gas, compared with the billions of dollars in investments needed to build a network of charging stations for electric vehicles.

But entirely replacing traditional fossil fuels with e-fuels would be difficult and extremely costly. In 2021, about 134.83 billion gallons of finished motor gasoline were consumed in the U.S., an average of about 369 million gallons per day, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration.

Still, production of such a fuel would allow Porsche and others a way to continue producing vehicles such as Porsche’s iconic 911 sports car with a traditional engine alongside, or rather than, a new electric model. While electric vehicles can offer outstanding performance, their driving dynamics differ from traditional engines.



***copied from a blog i found***