I thought math was settled, apparently not…

[Ponyryd]

I’m sure some of you have heard about this, and I for one am pretty pissed off since I have 2 kids in school.
How the hell did this ever make it to official status? Are we that stupid? This is completely ridiculous!

https://www.dcp.edu.gov.on.ca/en/curriculum/secondary-mathematics/courses/mth1w/course-intro

Here’s just a bit of it, but there’s a lot of stupidity in there…..

The goal of the Ontario mathematics curriculum is to provide all students with the key skills required to:
understand the importance of and appreciate the beauty and wonder of mathematics;
recognize and appreciate multiple mathematical perspectives;
recognize the ways in which mathematics can be used as a tool to uncover, explore, analyse, and promote actions to address social and environmental issues such as inequity and discrimination;
make informed decisions and contribute fully to their own lives and to today’s interconnected local and global communities;
adapt to changes and synthesize new ideas;
work both independently and collaboratively to approach challenges;
communicate effectively;
think critically and creatively to connect, apply, and leverage mathematics within other areas of study including science, technology, engineering, the arts, and beyond.
A strong foundation of mathematics is an important contributor to students’ future success and an essential part of becoming an informed citizen. In order to develop a strong understanding of mathematics and the ability to apply mathematics in real life, all students must feel that they are connected to the curriculum – to what is taught, why it is taught, and how it is taught.

[RedSN]

Somebody was high when they wrote that.

Sorry, math is none of that. It’s multiplication tables, fractions, adding and subtracting. It’s boring. It’s not fun. It’s not trying to be your best friend.

[92redragtop]

Isn't that just a lot of mumbo jumbo to say that it's good to know math?

[xeninworx]

What the hell does math have to do with art?

[newbiestangowner]

What the hell does math have to do with art?

Paint by numbers

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210713/033eebf2ede5f032e8a8ce20e141a3a5.jpg

[hammerhead]

Somebody was high when they wrote that.

Sorry, math is none of that. It’s multiplication tables, fractions, adding and subtracting. It’s boring. It’s not fun. It’s not trying to be your best friend.

LOL Don Believe me with six kids and two still in school math is not the same - I've have many grey hairs due to math homework...lol

[hammerhead]

I can understand some of this - some of the more successful countries especially in Tech have a population of people with better math skills than this country - in order for Canada to compete in the future with other countries and stay economically sound strong math skills is required...I'm a mechanic and in the past was an artist and studied art all through school and into college...Math will also develop a strong mechanical aptitude (I believe) which can easily be adapted to many skill sets including art...I just always hated math and some of that story makes no sense to me...lol

[Quicksilver]

I read that press release the other day, and my first though was that someone was blowing a lot of hooey.
I may be old school, and I'm certainly old, but to me math is math. 1+1 = 2. 5x7 = 35. And so on. Mathematics, at least for most people is fixed. Balancing a chequebook. Adding up your purchases in the grocery store. Figuring out payments on a new car. Understanding mortgages.
To this day, I can add stuff up mentally without a calculator, or work out how much 3 boxes of food are, or do numbers in my head. For g-d's sake, they don't even teach multiplication tables any more.

This idea of subjectivity and racism in mathematics is absolutely ridiculous, and even though the Ford Government is at least a bit better better than the Liberals, this is one thing where they are wrong. Math, is math.

[Ponyryd]

Isn't that just a lot of mumbo jumbo to say that it's good to know math?

No, they’re moving goalposts to make math easier for certain people, so apparently 2+2 could be 1 depending what colour your skin is, what neighbourhood you grew up in, what your sexual preference is, etc……
It’s outrageous, and it cannot stand. Leave the stupidity to the social studies/liberal arts classes, math is math. No matter who you are, or where you’re from.

[92redragtop]

No, they’re moving goalposts to make math easier for certain people, so apparently 2+2 could be 1 depending what colour your skin is, what neighbourhood you grew up in, what your sexual preference is, etc……
It’s outrageous, and it cannot stand. Leave the stupidity to the social studies/liberal arts classes, math is math. No matter who you are, or where you’re from.

I don't think so. I read through the page and it's still a lot of mumbo jumbo about differential learning (adapting examples to backgrounds; ie. different game plays heading to the same goalposts) but the outputs/goalposts are the same. It's a variant on using different approaches with people based on their Myers-Briggs, True Colors or other similar profile structures. We still have to build bridges, manufacture things, manage money, etc so the learning output/goal has to be consistent....just the route there differs. Sounds like it was a government make-work project for consultants to write up how they're adapting teaching to different student needs. Good teachers have always done this.

[UnlimitedTraction]

lol the current math curriculum woefully prepares students for post secondary education. This is just plain stupidity.

[Ponyryd]

I don't think so. I read through the page and it's still a lot of mumbo jumbo about differential learning (adapting examples to backgrounds; ie. different game plays heading to the same goalposts) but the outputs/goalposts are the same. It's a variant on using different approaches with people based on their Myers-Briggs, True Colors or other similar profile structures. We still have to build bridges, manufacture things, manage money, etc so the learning output/goal has to be consistent....just the route there differs. Sounds like it was a government make-work project for consultants to write up how they're adapting teaching to different student needs. Good teachers have always done this.

Somehow I knew you would disagree that this was bad………….

[92redragtop]

Well, in the same way you have inductive and deductive reasoning - there is more than one way of learning the SAME thing. If you think it's not learning the SAME thing you should ask if there is someone pedaling the "outrage" to manipulate their audience and fit their agenda. If anything, you should be outraged at the atrocious use of your tax dollars for them to re-write what good teachers likely already do in their classes (ie. tailor their delivery approach to different student learning styles). It's really not that much more complicated.

TMC members will be heading to TMP on July 22 for track day, taking different routes but arriving at the same destination (TMP)….isn't this the same concept? I’m sure we could write a math problem into this example….lol.

Doesn't the education system already have different streams for advanced/gifted students versus others? This is not that different except my read is that they'll be doing it in the same class environment. That said, it shouldn't penalize one student versus another if they have different styles but I think that would depend on the teachers. I know we have some teachers on here so it's best to hear from them what the impact (if any) of the delivery styles contemplated would have (or not).

[UnlimitedTraction]

Well, in the same way you have inductive and deductive reasoning - there is more than one way of learning the SAME thing. If you think it's not learning the SAME thing you should ask if there is someone pedaling the "outrage" to manipulate their audience and fit their agenda. If anything, you should be outraged at the atrocious use of your tax dollars for them to re-write what good teachers likely already do in their classes (ie. tailor their delivery approach to different student learning styles). It's really not that much more complicated.

TMC members will be heading to TMP on July 22 for track day, taking different routes but arriving at the same destination (TMP)….isn't this the same concept? I’m sure we could write a math problem into this example….lol.

Doesn't the education system already have different streams for advanced/gifted students versus others? This is not that different except my read is that they'll be doing it in the same class environment. That said, it shouldn't penalize one student versus another if they have different styles but I think that would depend on the teachers. I know we have some teachers on here so it's best to hear from them what the impact (if any) of the delivery styles contemplated would have (or not).

The education system is god awful in Ontario. It is very very far behind other countries and it doesn't prepare students well for post secondary education. Not surprisingly, the teacher's unions have zero desire to change the status quo to make it more rigorous. Another issue is massive grade inflation that makes it difficult for students when they apply to college/uni.

[hammerhead]

lol the current math curriculum woefully prepares students for post secondary education. This is just plain stupidity.

This is true - I was terrible at math and asked my kids what level are you taking this is like calculus (something I would never go near) when my children come home with math homework and have no idea what is going on, there's something wrong... when I have to spend hours online teaching myself math so I can then in turn teach my children... there's something wrong - I do what I can to get them thru it but at the same time feel like a bad parent because, I'm teaching them that all you need in life is the basics (as we could do get thru life) but deep down know it goes deeper and they will need to know more than I could teach them - what we went thru this year to get my daughter thru math begs me to ask the question - Why do we pay for schooling...? There must be a more efficient and affordable way - I don't receive a penny or a tax break for teaching my own kid after my 12 hour day.

[92redragtop]

The education system is god awful in Ontario. It is very very far behind other countries and it doesn't prepare students well for post secondary education. Not surprisingly, the teacher's unions have zero desire to change the status quo to make it more rigorous. Another issue is massive grade inflation that makes it difficult for students when they apply to college/uni.

I don't have experience with the education system in Ontario (I did the British GCE "O" and "A" levels for secondary school) so that may be the case. That said, don't we graduate world class talent in various STEM disciplines here where our students are in high demand by MNCs? I had a lot of very bright Ontario educated people in my Master's program at Western. I'm sure a lot of members here have smart kids in university or out working, and I have Ontario educated nieces/nephews who are working in STEM or financial fields - were they flukes?

That said, I don't agree with grade inflation and giving everyone a medal as that's not how the world works (I think this is a more recent thing?).

[newbiestangowner]

I don't have experience with the education system in Ontario (I did the British GCE "O" and "A" levels for secondary school) so that may be the case. That said, don't we graduate world class talent in various STEM disciplines here where our students are in high demand by MNCs? I had a lot of very bright Ontario educated people in my Master's program at Western. I'm sure a lot of members here have smart kids in university or out working, and I have Ontario educated nieces/nephews who are working in STEM or financial fields - were they flukes?

That said, I don't agree with grade inflation and giving everyone a medal as that's not how the world works (I think this is a more recent thing?).

Whole family went through ( and currently going through) the Ontario school system .
I personally had no problems with it( shrug) I think it prepared us for post secondary.
As far as comparing it with international education levels ,daughter has been offered opportunities with S Korea and is currently doing an internship with Japan (shrug). Just saying international organizations do look at students from Ontario [emoji2369].( in my experience)

[R3troGT]

Ford government drops curriculum language that called math racist | Toronto Sun (https://torontosun.com/news/provincial/ford-government-drops-curriculum-language-that-called-math-racist)

[92redragtop]

LOL so they removed the mumbo jumbo language that's causing an "uproar" but the revised curriculum is still in place. I guess that's all it takes to appease the marauders? (I hope they can get a refund from the consultants who wrote that description for them).

[newbiestangowner]

^there you go Richard, they cut the …..^


https://youtu.be/-ePA3jdNUKM

[Ponyryd]

LOL so they removed the mumbo jumbo language that's causing an "uproar" but the revised curriculum is still in place. I guess that's all it takes to appease the marauders? (I hope they can get a refund from the consultants who wrote that description for them).

So since they dropped it, it seems your analysis of it was way off base, and the wording was clearly intended toward favouring certain students over others, and embracing the “differences” that their life experiences allegedly carry with them.
But yes, since you mentioned it in another post, I am absolutely upset that my/our tax dollars are going towards this stupidity…and I’m sure hundreds of man-hours, and hundreds of thousands of dollars were wasted on it thus far.

[92redragtop]

Did they actually change the "revised" curriculum they are implementing or just changing the description of the curriculum to appease the folks complaining but still doing (in practice/delivery) what they intended to do anyway? It sounds like the "revised" curriculum is still going forward to replace what the Liberals had before, so they will be delivering as they intended but they just changed how they talk about it in public by changing the words they use.

[LX89]

I think the Ontario education system sucked when I went to school starting with public school in the early 70's and then high school starting in 1980.

Started out learning the Imperial system of measurement in public school then they threw a wrench into the gears and switched to metric sometime in the mid 70's.

I still relate more to the Imperial system.

[hammerhead]

I think the Ontario education system sucked when I went to school starting with public school in the early 70's and then high school starting in 1980.

Started out learning the Imperial system of measurement in public school then they threw a wrench into the gears and switched to metric sometime in the mid 70's.

I still relate more to the Imperial system.

LOL - me too - it's funny when my kids want to help me with something - I would give them the easy job at first...grab the tape measure and mark 4' on the 2x4 - they had no idea what I was talking about. Not only did I have to teach them math but Imperial measurement as well hahaha. I'm a better reno teacher than math teacher...lol and when I call them hammerheads I don't get nasty irate parents knocking on my door....the school of hard knocks

[Ponyryd]

Did they actually change the "revised" curriculum they are implementing or just changing the description of the curriculum to appease the folks complaining but still doing (in practice/delivery) what they intended to do anyway? It sounds like the "revised" curriculum is still going forward to replace what the Liberals had before, so they will be delivering as they intended but they just changed how they talk about it in public by changing the words they use.

I’m not sure, but even suggesting it seems to me (and apparently a huge numbers of other Ontarians) to be mildly retarded.
Why are you supporting it? When is 2+2 something other than 4?


Are we trying to imitate the morons in California? Didn’t work out well there either….

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/california-social-justice-math-curriculum

[92redragtop]

I assume you are joking when you say the new curriculum would suggest teaching anything where 2+2 would be equal to something other than 4. I don't think the curriculum includes anything like that but I haven't read it - have you? I'm not talking about preambles and introductions to the curriculum which appears to be the portion they have changed....but the actual revised curriculum.

Funny, I remember when the curriculum they're currently using caused an uproar when Kathleen Wynne introduced it but looks like people are ok with her now.

[Ponyryd]

Well here we have it fellas, I really hate being right about this kind of stupidity, but it seems there is no avoiding it, no matter how ridiculous.
Of course this is out of Ontario, Canada, lol, what an embarrassment.

https://thepostmillennial.com/canadian-teacher-says-2-2-4-is-white-supremacy

I’m sure many will call the source “untrustworthy”, lmao, so here’s a sample.


Manhattan Institute senior fellow and journalist Chris Rufo, who has revealed numerous cases of critical race theory teachings in institutions ranging from Disney to the City of Dallas, recently posted a link to a teacher who believes the mathematical equation 2+2=4 is "white supremacy."

Rufo posts screenshots of Heather Theijsmeijer, a math coordinator and teacher in Ontario, Canada, whose post reads, "There are many math education practices that we (white folk) don't see as racist or supremacist, because they are so ingrained in our background and experiences (and we have been the ones to benefit from them.)"

[ChickenLips]

home schooling

The current educational system is an left wing indoctrination camp optimized to make unthinking wage slaves

I won't be a grandfather, but if I was I would dedicate myself to home schooling the grand child.

[cudaboy]

I think you can see how bad things are by going into a store and buying something and the young cashier has trouble determining what the change should be for the sale....unless the cash register tells them what it should be.
I guess with the use of a credit card they dont have to worry about it.
The education system should go back and bring in the times tables and eliminate the use of calculators in the classroom. Especially in the beginning grades. Maybe the teachers would learn something too.

[Ponyryd]

Whil I agree with both of you, that’s not even the biggest problem right now….…..it’s bad enough that kids aren’t learning anything, but to now go against what is a sound, settled system to push race and equality makes absolutely no sense. If I have 2 bricks and pick up two more I have 4, regardless of my race/ethnicity.

[mavrrrick]

The world is going to shits!!!

[ChickenLips]

There is a big assumption at play that the state must educate our children.

Letting the state educate is a convenient daycare strategy and until you stop and think about it, simply assumed to be the way things get done.

Just as we abdicate use of force to the state on condition that the state exercise use of force to protect the citizens. When the state fails to protect, vigilantism displaces the authorities.

The public abdicates education to the state, the state is failing to educate.

[Ponyryd]

^This is very true, but for all but a few there are no other viable options for education. Tried grandparents us a hood option-if they’re up for it, but then the kids are losing out in huge social-skill building by being in a class with others

[ChickenLips]

^This is very true, but for all but a few there are no other viable options for education. Tried grandparents us a hood option-if they’re up for it, but then the kids are losing out in huge social-skill building by being in a class with others

I'd challenge "social skill"

It's definitely social. Most kids want to go back to in person for the social yes, for the education no. Social outlets much cheaper than school can be organized without the indoctrination.

I'll take it a bit further, most college and university is useless and only an excuse to go hang, screw and get high with a peer group while funded by others and supervised by no one.

[Zee]

What the hell does math have to do with art?

You'd be surprised how much math is related to art. The whole concept is quite beautiful :) Check out this link:
https://blog.agradeahead.com/post/the-relationship-between-art-and-math/

[StAnger]

The world has gone to shit!!!

Fixed that for you

[Gr8Stang]

I think you can see how bad things are by going into a store and buying something and the young cashier has trouble determining what the change should be for the sale....unless the cash register tells them what it should be.
I guess with the use of a credit card they dont have to worry about it.
The education system should go back and bring in the times tables and eliminate the use of calculators in the classroom. Especially in the beginning grades. Maybe the teachers would learn something too.

Don't worry, I'm sure math really isn't very useful in building bridges, aircraft and other slightly complicated things. < sarcasm on HIGH!

[ChickenLips]

..

[Zee]

Don't worry, I'm sure math really isn't very useful in building bridges, aircraft and other slightly complicated things. < sarcasm on HIGH!

This.

But I also think more scenarios about the real world need to be applied in the curriculum. For example, taxes, mortgages - how they work, the rates - how they go up or down and affect your payment, the pro's and con's of credit cards, improving your credit etc.
I do feel that is a tad bit more important than teaching a kid "quadratic equations"
This would yield kids who are abit financially smarter - but something tells me the system wants them to rack up high debt.

[Ponyryd]

This.

But I also think more scenarios about the real world need to be applied in the curriculum. For example, taxes, mortgages - how they work, the rates - how they go up or down and affect your payment, the pro's and con's of credit cards, improving your credit etc.
I do feel that is a tad bit more important than teaching a kid "quadratic equations"
This would yield kids who are abit financially smarter - but something tells me the system wants them to rack up high debt.

I fully agree, with this entire post, lol. What a sad civilization we have become…I teach my kids about interest and mortgages, credit cards, etc…and they are shocked to learn any of it……one in high school and one almost done grade school.

[RedSN]

I teach my kids about interest and mortgages, credit cards, etc…and they are shocked to learn any of it……
And where did you learn that? School? I don’t remember any of that being taught except for how to calculate interest.
But learned that from my parents anyway as a kid who grew up during the 80’s. Millennials don’t know interest because despite the recent hikes , 5% is nothing.

[hammerhead]

my first lesson in sales tax —I was five years old and got two bucks for my Birthday. Mom took me to the store cause it was burning a hole in my pocket. Revell had a '68 Camaro model kit I wanted it. It was two bucks —got to the cash and I was short 7 cents and had a hell of a time squeezing mom for that 7 cents...back then a loaf of bread was less than a dime...

[5.4MarkVIII]

And where did you learn that? School? I don’t remember any of that being taught except for how to calculate interest.
But learned that from my parents anyway as a kid who grew up during the 80’s. Millennials don’t know interest because despite the recent hikes , 5% is nothing.

Your not wrong but we do now have a generation of homeowners that have not seen rates this high in their time owning. And that’s really no fault of their own. Unfortunately a really rough time ahead for a lot of people.

[ChickenLips]

I teach my kids about interest and mortgages, credit cards, etc…and they are shocked to learn any of it……



And where did you learn that? School? I don’t remember any of that being taught except for how to calculate interest.
But learned that from my parents anyway as a kid who grew up during the 80’s. Millennials don’t know interest because despite the recent hikes , 5% is nothing.

learning these things does not contribute to making you an obedient wage slave.

[hammerhead]

my first house —13.5% cost of house $86,000.00 mortgage payment just under $900.00/month —many home owners around have not been born here also see the best of cars in the driveways baffles me where all the money comes from...?

edited the cost on the house —my second house was $64,000.00 at roughly half the mortgage rate of the above in 1993

[5.4MarkVIII]

my first house —13.5% cost of house $86,000.00 mortgage payment just under $900.00/month —many home owners around have not been born here also see the best of cars in the driveways baffles me where all the money comes from...?

edited the cost on the house —my second house was $64,000.00 at roughly half the mortgage rate of the above in 1993

Exactly. that’s what I meant. My First house bough around 10 years ago. Was $115000 and I paid around 2% Interest. Payments were $500 per month. I knew interest rates used to be stupid high but not something I ever experienced. And even “money” people I talked to didn’t expect that to change much. We opted for the 100k house and sweat equity over the 500k the bank told us to spend. Lots of other didn’t make that decision and are going to be paying for that big time. But I don’t think we can fault them for failures of the government. Things never should have gotten this bad.

Though this Is probably a little off topic. I do agree that parents need to take the time to teach their kids this stuff. And it should be included in school absolutely before allot of the other useless stuff they do teach.

[92redragtop]

Your not wrong but we do now have a generation of homeowners that have not seen rates this high in their time owning. And that’s really no fault of their own. Unfortunately a really rough time ahead for a lot of people.

Wasn't that also the case in the '80's?

[92redragtop]

This.

But I also think more scenarios about the real world need to be applied in the curriculum. For example, taxes, mortgages - how they work, the rates - how they go up or down and affect your payment, the pro's and con's of credit cards, improving your credit etc.
I do feel that is a tad bit more important than teaching a kid "quadratic equations"
This would yield kids who are abit financially smarter - but something tells me the system wants them to rack up high debt.

Don't disagree about "financial math" being taught in school early on (ie. before university) and that parents start this even before kids start school and throughout school - there are financial/money lessons everyday - shopping, eating out, paying bills, budgeting around the family table, etc. That said, those equations being taught to kids has enabled all of us to communicate on computers via the interwebs, have smartphones, drive cars, fly anywhere we want, have best healthcare in history, build small and big stuff, etc, etc. A DCF or IRR math calculation wouldn't help with that stuff unless it was related to the fund raising to pay for it.

[ChickenLips]

..

[5.4MarkVIII]

Wasn't that also the case in the '80's?

Probably. Personally wasn’t buying houses when I was a baby so……

[92redragtop]

Probably. Personally wasn’t buying houses when I was a baby so……

A number of people in that buying generation had a hard time too and foreclosure rates were higher (than today) with people handing their house keys to the banks because they couldn't afford 18% interest rates (our version of jingle mail).

[5.4MarkVIII]

A number of people in that buying generation had a hard time too and foreclosure rates were higher (than today) with people handing their house keys to the banks because they couldn't afford 18% interest rates (our version of jingle mail).

Yes…. That why I said there is a generation of people right now that are in home ownership that have not seen these interest rates before. I never said this has never happens before.

[92redragtop]

Life can be hard at times....just a first world issue.

[5.4MarkVIII]

Life can be hard at times....just a first world issue.

Losing everything because a failure of a government screws everything up. Yep first world issue.

[92redragtop]

These the same folks who have $1,000 phones, drive newer cars, disposable clothes (ie. fast fashion), order everything they want from Amazon, Walmart, and any kind of food they want from Uber, Skip, Door, etc. That wasn't the case for the generation that got foreclosed on back in the late 70's-80's. At least they don't have to eat their dog for dinner....yet.

It's not that bad (yet) and this happens on a repeating cycle for centuries so ALL governments miscalculate a little at times especially when we've had an unprecedented bull run for way longer than the average bull run, excess liquidity from multiple governments since 2008 crash, a pandemic, tax cuts (2018), geographical conflicts, and government support programs.

[5.4MarkVIII]

These the same folks who have $1,000 phones, drive newer cars, disposable clothes (ie. fast fashion), order everything they want from Amazon, Walmart, and any kind of food they want from Uber, Skip, Door, etc. That wasn't the case for the generation that got foreclosed on back in the late 70's-80's. At least they don't have to eat their dog for dinner....yet.

It's not that bad (yet) and this happens on a repeating cycle for centuries so ALL governments miscalculate a little at times especially when we've had an unprecedented bull run for way longer than the average bull run, excess liquidity from multiple governments since 2008 crash, a pandemic, tax cuts (2018), geographical conflicts, and government support programs.

Yep these are the same folks who take their financial advise form institutions and financial experts who always seem to come out ahead while the customers they are suppose to work for loose everything.

As of right now I’ll be fine my only personal dept is my mortgage and I bought before the prices went crazy. But I have this thing called empathy where I feel bad for people who get screwed by people who know that, what they are doing is harmful but do it anyway. You call it a miscalculation. I call it corruption.

[92redragtop]

Or they get advice from FB, IG, Tik Tok.....


It's economics and it's not an exact science and decisions/actions are lagged so really hard to change the direction of the QE2 on a dime - you only learn the real outcomes of decisions well after the fact. Also, I thought we were about personal responsibility and accountability - who is responsible for someone buying flat screen TVs, stainless steel appliances (and throwing out/re-homing good older models), new entry level Audis, BMWs, MBs, etc, new phones, leather seats/heated seats and all kinds of formerly "premium" options on even non-premium cars) etc., using borrowed money? I don't think salespeople at dealerships, Best Buy, Tasco, Costco, etc are armed with weapons to forcibly close sales. Some of this is behavioural so no one but ourselves is responsible (applies to me also in what I buy based on what I want vs what I need).


I agree that since parents don't teach their kids about paying themselves first, budgeting, tithing, not replacing things before their usable lifecycle, buying bigger homes (I think the average home size for an average family is up significantly over the past 100 years), etc.....so it should be part of basic education.

[5.4MarkVIII]

Oh so people are not allowed to buy things. Even when budgeting regarding current situations?
Does printing money and overspending by the government not factor in at all, or are we all suppose to refrain from any spending in case the government goes full corrupt? Or does corruption only matter when a certain orange haired person is in charge?

[92redragtop]

Oh so people are not allowed to buy things. Even when budgeting regarding current situations?



They are allowed to buy anything they want and how they want to buy it (if they have the money or not) but they are the only ones responsible tor the situation they put themselves in if they buy things they cannot afford (ie. don't have the liquidity; not cash flow).

[5.4MarkVIII]

They are allowed to buy anything they want and how they want to buy it (if they have the money or not) but they are the only ones responsible tor the situation they put themselves in if they buy things they cannot afford (ie. don't have the liquidity; not cash flow).

Does the affordability matter if they are responsible or if the corrupt government is? I know a few very financially responsible people who are now heading back to work out of retirement or pushing back retirement because investments took a shit kicking followed by record inflation. How dare they not prepare for eco terrorist government backed by their excuse makers.

[92redragtop]

Markets go up and down (we have 120 years of evidence and patterns) so you prepare for that and adapt if plan does not go as planned. This has happened before to people who retired in the late 60's and early 70s, or 80s, or after the dotcom crash, or 2008. Similar events prior to the 60s also. People used to have the proverbial piggy bank/rainy day fund then that went away when we started buying everything based on cash flow/subscription/recurring revenue about 30 years ago (although it was layaway before that) - now we're back to the importance of the personal/household emergency fund. Minimum 6 months in cash or ST investments (not equity markets) and if you're prepping for retirement then it's 2-3 years in case there is a market cycle downturn (this is not an IF but a WHEN) right when you go to retire (so you don't have to liquidate portfolio/investments in a down cycle).

[5.4MarkVIII]

Markets go up and down (we have 120 years of evidence and patterns) so you prepare for that and adapt if plan does not go as planned. This has happened before to people who retired in the late 60's and early 70s, or 80s, or after the dotcom crash, or 2008. Similar events prior to the 60s also. People used to have the proverbial piggy bank/rainy day fund then that went away when we started buying everything based on cash flow/subscription/recurring revenue about 30 years ago (although it was layaway before that) - now we're back to the importance of the personal/household emergency fund. Minimum 6 months in cash or ST investments (not equity markets) and if you're prepping for retirement then it's 2-3 years in case there is a market cycle downturn (this is not an IF but a WHEN) right when you go to retire (so you don't have to liquidate portfolio/investments in a down cycle).

So much empathy. Still can’t blame the corrupt government?

Don’t buy that new car a thief may steal it. You should have prepared for that possibility.

[ChickenLips]

Inflation is the killer, devaluing the equity of young and old alike.

Markets downturns don't cause inflation, governments do. They're the only one who can print cash and devalue the money supply.

[5.4MarkVIII]

Inflation is the killer, devaluing the equity of young and old alike.

Markets downturns don't cause inflation, governments do. They're the only one who can print cash and devalue the money supply.

But really its peoples fault cuz they buy things. Lol

[92redragtop]

Inflation is the killer, devaluing the equity of young and old alike.

Markets downturns don't cause inflation, governments do. They're the only one who can print cash and devalue the money supply.

This is not the first time we have seen inflation - this is a human history thing. You think bubbles are new - do some research.

[92redragtop]

But really its peoples fault cuz they buy things. Lol

Yup - again I thought conservatives were all for personal responsibility and accountability, and not playing the victim card. Buying things you can't afford/don't have the EXCESS cash on hand for (and I don't mean "borrowing" from rent/housing or food money) - is that anyone else's fault but the buyer/individual? When did that change?


Even with inflation, the same folks complaining are continuing to spend on new iPhone 14's, ordering through apps, have paid subscriptions for all kinds of things, buying/leasing things, streaming services, convenience products, etc.

The people making decisions in government are the same people demonstrating these same behaviours as consumers so they aren't any smarter than the average person (ie. they don't really know what they're doing and it's all experimentation regardless of whether LEFT or RIGHT is in government).

[92redragtop]

Anyway, I don't want anyone complaining about BFFing so I will back out so the entertainment can continue in here.

[ChickenLips]

This is not the first time we have seen inflation - this is a human history thing. You think bubbles are new - do some research.

yes inflation has happened before.

the governments have caused it in the past as well.

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[5.4MarkVIII]

Yup - again I thought conservatives were all for personal responsibility and accountability, and not playing the victim card. Buying things you can't afford/don't have the EXCESS cash on hand for (and I don't mean "borrowing" from rent/housing or food money) - is that anyone else's fault but the buyer/individual? When did that change?


Even with inflation, the same folks complaining are continuing to spend on new iPhone 14's, ordering through apps, have paid subscriptions for all kinds of things, buying/leasing things, streaming services, convenience products, etc.

The people making decisions in government are the same people demonstrating these same behaviours as consumers so they aren't any smarter than the average person (ie. they don't really know what they're doing and it's all experimentation regardless of whether LEFT or RIGHT is in government).

Lol yes I’m all for personal responsibility. People over spending is a thing and something I have argued against in terms of governments forcing up minimum wage. And the whole “living wage” Bs. But you seem to keep ignoring the actual argument (surprise surprise) it’s not just people who spend frivolously that are having issues now. Inflation hurts everyone but you just can’t seem to lay blame for our current situations where it resides. Which is on the shoulders of governments and financial institutions. You are correct on something, these cycles have happened before. It’s always the little guys who get screwed while the “financial experts” and politicians get richer. What irritates me the most besides your return to attacking peoples intelligence is the fact that we all know if Trump were in charged you would the the first to stand up and scream it’s his fault. But when it’s other figures you just can’t bring yourself to condemn the corruption.

[mavrrrick]

You're both right. Government is responsible for inflation. But the people who spend more than they can afford, they are responsible for where they are. If you can't afford it....don't buy it. One of my own kids came to my place and sat on my floor crying when covid hit. When we came out of it a bit and things opened up, they went and spent $2500 on renting a cottage. WTF!!!??? You were just worried (Crying) about mortgage payments and now??? This year, rented a cottage again. No lesson learned and if things get tight again, they are screwed. I can't feel bad because they dug their own hole.

[ChickenLips]

You're both right. Government is responsible for inflation. But the people who spend more than they can afford, they are responsible for where they are. If you can't afford it....don't buy it. One of my own kids came to my place and sat on my floor crying when covid hit. When we came out of it a bit and things opened up, they went and spent $2500 on renting a cottage. WTF!!!??? You were just worried (Crying) about mortgage payments and now??? This year, rented a cottage again. No lesson learned and if things get tight again, they are screwed. I can't feel bad because they dug their own hole.

inflation and debt are two separate things.

Individuals have no control over inflation, but a lot of control over debt.

[Laffs]

inflation and debt are two separate things.

Individuals have no control over inflation, but a lot of control over debt.

Separate yes, but intrinsically linked. Taking on debt but not allowing for inflation (not record smashing but to some level) is a fools errand. Too many people take on debt they can only just afford today without a care if tomorrows interest rates are sustainable.

[5.4MarkVIII]

Separate yes, but intrinsically linked. Taking on debt but not allowing for inflation (not record smashing but to some level) is a fools errand. Too many people take on debt they can only just afford today without a care if tomorrows interest rates are sustainable.

I agree with this yes. Im just saying we are far beyond that point. We now have people what have made financially responsible decisions who are in danger simply due to failed government policy.

[Laffs]

I agree with this yes. Im just saying we are far beyond that point. We now have people what have made financially responsible decisions who are in danger simply due to failed government policy.

Which policies do you believe caused this?

[5.4MarkVIII]

Which policies do you believe caused this?

Covid policy’s, green policy’s and printing money to cut checks have all led to inflation and other economic issues

[ChickenLips]

Covid, green energy and any other government spending programs is no different than citizens spending more than is responsible.

Printing money and causing inflation compounds the above errors.

While causing inflation is a bad decision (for the citizens, good for the government), linking devaluing the $$ along with bad spending decisions muddies the water.

[Laffs]

I mean, yea increasing money supply is a direct contributor to causing demand pull inflation if there's more money circulating than goods and services to buy. However consumer habits still have some blame there, just because the government gives you money doesn't mean you are being forced to spend it all (on retail products). We basically had a perfect storm (I hate that I just used this term) the last two years: huge increases in the money supply, demand pull from consumers at home flush with cash and terrible engrained spending habits buying more and then bam the supply chain and labour force unravels (this one two you could argue is partly government blamed) and you have prime cost push season.

Honestly my opinion is there's more than enough blame to go around between governments, corporations, FI's and consumers that I don't rest the blame for our current outlook on any one person or entity. I'm honestly kinda shocked by some of the mentality in the thread not because it's wrong it's just not the thinking I thought many would have. IMHO the onus for financial stability and literacy boil down to the individual and while the school system could do a better job teaching the basics of finance granted (I'm told these programs are already starting to trickle in) I don't think the school systems should tell or teach people on what they could afford or what they "should" buy.

[5.4MarkVIII]

I mean, yea increasing money supply is a direct contributor to causing demand pull inflation if there's more money circulating than goods and services to buy. However consumer habits still have some blame there, just because the government gives you money doesn't mean you are being forced to spend it all (on retail products). We basically had a perfect storm (I hate that I just used this term) the last two years: huge increases in the money supply, demand pull from consumers at home flush with cash and terrible engrained spending habits buying more and then bam the supply chain and labour force unravels (this one two you could argue is partly government blamed) and you have prime cost push season.

Honestly my opinion is there's more than enough blame to go around between governments, corporations, FI's and consumers that I don't rest the blame for our current outlook on any one person or entity. I'm honestly kinda shocked by some of the mentality in the thread not because it's wrong it's just not the thinking I thought many would have. IMHO the onus for financial stability and literacy boil down to the individual and while the school system could do a better job teaching the basics of finance granted (I'm told these programs are already starting to trickle in) I don't think the school systems should tell or teach people on what they could afford or what they "should" buy.

I agree with pretty much everything here. Yes a lot of blame to go around. I seems like Richard wasn’t allowing for any blame for the government and simply just arguing that if your having financial struggles right now it’s all your fault.
To me this is like someone stopped at a red light being rear ended and saying if your car is damaged it’s all your fault. Sometimes there are outside circumstances and it’s impossible to plan for all possibilities. So when the government fails or exacerbates a problem. That’s the issue. If people where not sent home and then cut checks for a year and a half they would not have had a flush of money to spend needlessly.

As for the schooling I also agreee that it should be up to the parents to teach this stuff. But at the same time it should be up to parents to feed their kids but unfortunately kids go hungry so in a lot of cases schools step in for the good of the child. Sometimes parents suck at being parents.

People always argue for policies that enable equal outcomes (like previously mentioned racist math) imho the best thing to give kids an equal start would be teaching them fiscal responsibility, and taxes, interest. Ect ect. Stuff that will matter to their own future. But I also think that if more people understood this stuff it would drastically change voting habits.

[92redragtop]

You'll note I did not say governments (I'll throw in FIs, etc) did not have any blame in where we are today or in the past cycles. There are a lot of moving parts, people making estimates and guesses/theories about what to do next (individuals, institutions, corps, governments/central banks), and I don't conflate these guesses or best estimates (or even incompetence) with corruption. Sure there may be isolated cases or even some cronyism but I ascribe more the invisible hand theory with these decisions and sometimes it doesn't go as planned given all the moving parts and independent actors acting in their own best interest, sometimes in contradictions with what other actors are doing. I still put the responsibility on the individual and the family unit for their own behaviours/decisions/education (ie. no one forces us to buy anything as a consumer outside of the basics to keep you alive which is self driven) as a fundamental building block given what we are fortunate to have in Maslow's hierarchy of needs versus others.

[ChickenLips]

Governments are the only ones who can increase the money supply. They have sole blame for inflation, which is their most palatable tax by virtue of being hidden.

Free market competition brings prices down, anti inflationary.

Restricting markets & closing down production through lockdowns, taxes, regulations constricts supply which causes inflation. Again government.

Laying blame anywhere but on government is delusional. Making excuses for it pretty much signals your vote has been bought through some government wealth redistribution effort.

[5.4MarkVIII]

You'll note I did not say governments (I'll throw in FIs, etc) did not have any blame in where we are today or in the past cycles. There are a lot of moving parts, people making estimates and guesses/theories about what to do next (individuals, institutions, corps, governments/central banks), and I don't conflate these guesses or best estimates (or even incompetence) with corruption. Sure there may be isolated cases or even some cronyism but I ascribe more the invisible hand theory with these decisions and sometimes it doesn't go as planned given all the moving parts and independent actors acting in their own best interest, sometimes in contradictions with what other actors are doing. I still put the responsibility on the individual and the family unit for their own behaviours/decisions/education (ie. no one forces us to buy anything as a consumer outside of the basics to keep you alive which is self driven) as a fundamental building block given what we are fortunate to have in Maslow's hierarchy of needs versus others.

Perhaps but when those in charge continue down the same path despite the damage. Then to me that is corruption and should be blamed as such. The reality is based on past arguments you have made if it were a certain someone else was in charge of the US I know without a shadow of a doubt you would be yelling corruption instead of “market trends”

[Laffs]

Governments are the only ones who can increase the money supply. They have sole blame for inflation, which is their most palatable tax by virtue of being hidden.

Sole blame is a bit heavy handed IMO.


Free market competition brings prices down, anti inflationary.

Sure maybe in a perfect hypothetical but in reality where price fixing, share prices, and greed exist you need checks and balances.


Restricting markets & closing down production through lockdowns, taxes, regulations constricts supply which causes inflation. Again government.

Explain then now that vast majority of restrictions have been lifted prices are still soaring, companies still closing down functional facilities in the interest of profits, industries are artificially creating scarcity while recording record profits.


Laying blame anywhere but on government is delusional. Making excuses for it pretty much signals your vote has been bought through some government wealth redistribution effort.

Counterpoint, this sounds pretty fuckin delusional to me...

[5.4MarkVIII]

Explain then now that vast majority of restrictions have been lifted prices are still soaring, companies still closing down functional facilities in the interest of profits, industries are artificially creating scarcity while recording record profits.
...

Interesting conversation as long as people don’t care it’s getting off topic.

I think it depends on the industry. I personally think there was some shady stuff happing with lumber threw the pandemic.
But I’m not really in that industry so it’s perhaps not an accurate opinion.

In my industry it’s been really really hard hit. We are still getting told eta’s of months from now
But in don’t think that’s artificial. The supply chain got so screwed at all levels everyone has said from the thick of it that This will take years to work itself out.

I’m curious which companies you are referring to as shutting down faculties and which ones are creating scarcity.

[ChickenLips]

Sole blame is a bit heavy handed IMO.

who prints money?



Sure maybe in a perfect hypothetical but in reality where price fixing, share prices, and greed exist you need checks and balances.

What's the best cure for price fixing? Competition. What stymies competition, regulation (government)

Explain then now that vast majority of restrictions have been lifted prices are still soaring, companies still closing down functional facilities in the interest of profits, industries are artificially creating scarcity while recording record profits.

Soaring prices are a market opportunity for competition. If competition is stifled soring prices are the result. Who stifles competition, you guessed it, government

Counterpoint, this sounds pretty fuckin delusional to me...

..

[Laffs]

who prints money?

One side of a two sided equation, gov print consumers allocates/spends


What's the best cure for price fixing? Competition. What stymies competition, regulation (government)

Regulation, oversight, transparency are great cures. Competition also stymied by monopolies, collusion, consumer perception and yes regulation


Soaring prices are a market opportunity for competition. If competition is stifled soring prices are the result. Who stifles competition, you guessed it, government

Also a condition rife for corporate greed and malfeasance.

[ChickenLips]

One side of a two sided equation, gov print consumers allocates/spends

if you make more dollars to chase the same amount of goods = inflation (government printing)

if you reduce the amount of goods being chased by the same amount of dollars = inflation (government regulation)

if you make more dollars, and reduce the amount of goods = hyper inflation Explain to me how consumer spending habits without the aforementioned government meddling causes inflation

Regulation, oversight, transparency are great cures. Competition also stymied by monopolies, collusion, consumer perception and yes regulation

what stops competition from making a cheaper product than the monopoly?


Also a condition rife for corporate greed and malfeasance.

corporate greed is what drives competition, better products


..

[92redragtop]

Perhaps but when those in charge continue down the same path despite the damage. Then to me that is corruption and should be blamed as such. The reality is based on past arguments you have made if it were a certain someone else was in charge of the US I know without a shadow of a doubt you would be yelling corruption instead of “market trends”

Yeah that dude was just plain corrupt with some incompetence mixed in...been like that for the past 30 years I've followed his businesses.

As for rinse and repeat strategies, it's no different than all the companies we complain about (eg. Rogers, Bell, bad service, bard parts, etc, etc) - they're people using their strategy/game playbooks and trying different iterations of it with sometimes good, sometimes ok, and sometimes unexpected/wrong results....not necessarily intent to commit a crime (ie. corruption).

[92redragtop]

Tax cuts at the wrong time (eg. 2018) can also have inflationary effects since it takes about 12-36 months to fully deploy through the annual tax cycle, FI system, and subsequent multiplier effects. Throw in subsequent deficits 2019+, pandemic and related restrictions, supply chain issues, right/wrong guesses as decision inputs, irrational consumer behaviour, etc., and all these moving parts add up to a confused invisible hand.

[92redragtop]

One side of a two sided equation, gov print consumers allocates/spends



Regulation, oversight, transparency are great cures. Competition also stymied by monopolies, collusion, consumer perception and yes regulation



Also a condition rife for corporate greed and malfeasance.

Moving jobs offshore is also a market opportunity to reduce prices....ie. allocating capital to cheapest source of production/reducing cost of inputs....but we don't like to talk about that.

[92redragtop]

On a somewhat related note, I complimented the 20-something year old bank teller today (when I was paying a bill in-branch) on the nice Rolex Submariner "Hulk" he was wearing. Nice piece but I wouldn't wear a watch like that at the counter in any bank branch (I know this one has been robbed before before he joined). He did say it was a gift from his family.

[ChickenLips]

Yeah that dude was just plain corrupt with some incompetence mixed in...been like that for the past 30 years I've followed his businesses.

As for rinse and repeat strategies, it's no different than all the companies we complain about (eg. Rogers, Bell, bad service, bard parts, etc, etc) - they're people using their strategy/game playbooks and trying different iterations of it with sometimes good, sometimes ok, and sometimes unexpected/wrong results....not necessarily intent to commit a crime (ie. corruption).

Corruption, just as with taxes. When "he" was called out on paying peanuts in taxes, his reply was spot on. Paraphrasing "I didn't set up the system, I'm taking advantage of the rules". Who set up tax laws?

Who makes it possible for cartel behavior of Rogers, Bell, etc. It's the same set of gangsters who set up tax laws. Who sets up the system where corruption is the most economical option.

Cries of "investigate the oil companies" when prices go up is a call for more regulation and government meddling where again, less is best.

The regulators aren't ignorant of the effects of meddling, it's just the short term political win (vote buy) works and the longer term economic fallout takes longer to manifest. When it does manifest it becomes another soapbox issue to grandstand and add another department or regulator to meddle with the problem they created themselves.

The market reacts and regulators act out of self interest not the interest of the voters.

[5.4MarkVIII]

Yeah that dude was just plain corrupt with some incompetence mixed in...been like that for the past 30 years I've followed his businesses.

As for rinse and repeat strategies, it's no different than all the companies we complain about (eg. Rogers, Bell, bad service, bard parts, etc, etc) - they're people using their strategy/game playbooks and trying different iterations of it with sometimes good, sometimes ok, and sometimes unexpected/wrong results....not necessarily intent to commit a crime (ie. corruption).

They have spend years going after him and can’t make anything stick. So he is incompetent but also a super genius becasie he is literally the single
Best person in the world at covering the evidence of all his corruption.

Lol

Thanks for once again proving my point.

[92redragtop]

Everyone/everything on the planet acts/reacts out of self interest....it's called survival instinct and it's built in. That's why when you strip everything away it comes down to personal responsibility for our behaviour/actions and for what we teach the next generation (and those around us who are willing to learn).

[5.4MarkVIII]

Everyone/everything on the planet acts/reacts out of self interest....it's called survival instinct and it's built in. That's why when you strip everything away it comes down to personal responsibility for our behaviour/actions and for what we teach the next generation (and those around us who are willing to learn).

Unless Trump is involved then its all his fault cuz he is crooked. Okay. I think I got it.

[bluetoy]

What the F does any of this BS have to do with math in schools...?

[5.4MarkVIII]

conversations evolve.

[Laffs]

What the F does any of this BS have to do with math in schools...?

Started at math in schools being scrutinized - to math is being taught wrong in schools - to schools should teach financial literacy - to what good is it teaching financial literacy when inflation is so rampant - to who is to blame to for inflation /human nature

[hammerhead]

There's a guy on twitter suing a college for not teaching his daughter —long story but he makes sense