05 gt p0191 error code

[Monera3v]

Hey guy's

Been posting on many forum in regards to my issue here
Before I take it into ford.
Issue is p0191, p1237 and the pump is constantly running with the key on (no engine start) but yes it turn off once key is off ,
as the chart below shows i'm seeing 75psi at the fuel rail, and pump is at 0.75 duty (150%?)

can anyone look at this data log and tell me if the pump seem to be bad , i see negative values at the pump, but the tables (pcm and fpdm) is giving positive voltage
Before i take it into ford just wanted some of y'all professional advise!

Thanks!

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t31.0-8/10333327_604525611724_475309844939663634_o.jpg

[Blackmare]

I moved this over to the mustang tech section. I think you might get better answers for this issue there. Hopefully the tech gurus can point ya in the right direction.

[Monera3v]

I moved this over to the mustang tech section. I think you might get better answers for this issue there. Hopefully the tech gurus can point ya in the right direction.

Merci beaucoup!

[Ponyryd]

Sounds like the relay is stuck.

[Monera3v]

Sounds like the relay is stuck.

swapped a relay
swap a fps
swap a fpdm

Nothing change the out come

[Ponyryd]

Maybe you have a shorted fuse box, have you tried banging on it? Regardless I wouldn't go to the dealer, better off at a decent private shop IMO.

[hsousa88]

Maybe you have a shorted fuse box, have you tried banging on it? Regardless I wouldn't go to the dealer, better off at a decent private shop IMO.

Agreed.. down with the dealer.

[Monera3v]

Figured out my issue everyone!
Since I was off Wednesday and Thursday, I decided to strip the car completely

First thing I checked was the wiring harness that runs next to the SJB , it was corroded on the inside, I saw a Black / pink stripe wire and notice that belong / went to the fuel pump module.

So I soaked the wiring in 99% alcohol to destroy the corrosion use a Dremel to clean the rest off and sprayed contact cleaner.

For precaution I grinded all the ground sources.

MAF sensor was BLACK!!!! so sprayed some crc maf sensor , cleaned off the cone

Voila , Everything started working perfectly fine! Also fixed 1 of my dimming headlamp (corrosion repair o the SJB)

I also google that leak issue we have at the cowl where water would come in and ruin the sjb and repaired that with urethane

Thank's everyone who helped me out with this!


So since the pump has been running at 0.75 duty for the last 2 weeks... it pretty much going to take a shit on me soon since it been warned and stressed out and probably should replace it right?

[Monera3v]

Never mind issue is back....

Pretty sure the pump is fubar

[Monera3v]

Problem solved,

Fuel pump shorted out.

New pump in no problem after 400km

[Blackmare]

Great to hear.

[Ponyryd]

Glad you got it sorted, corrosion in fuse boxes is crazy common on domestic stuff.

[Monera3v]

My engine bay is covered in sand and salt -_- I am nervous to do a engine wash considering what I just went threw to fix all the electrical issues.

[Monera3v]

*KICK's CAR*

The issue has returned -_- I'm done with this car , heading over to RICK's next week

[swalt]

I was going to get you a FPDM to swap in, but you already did that. You did the pump. Have you done the fuel filter? Second step (after calling my local Ford mechanic) said a faulty pressure sensor (up at the fuel rail) would cause the pump to run a high cycle.

[swalt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC0O1J4Am7E

[swalt]

This is also a useful link to a link since you mentioned the car may have been in an accident before. Assuming new filter and the pressure sensor is good, there are several grounding points on the right front that need to be good. Yours may be compromised if you had an accident. There is also dialog in this post below that indicates and intermittent issue with an alternator can throw fuel code errors due to improper voltage. Worth a read.

http://forums.themustangsource.com/f669/p0191-help-517565/

[ZR]

Interesting vid Steve, had a run of problems with Airtex pumps in fleet service and quit using them. With that in mind, new AT pump fixed the original problem for a week, well worth removing it to check for short to ground triggering the pump. FPDM he purchased is a Doorman, can rely on most of their products about the same at AT, no way of knowing if it's really ok or not.

[Monera3v]

if anyone has donor parts to lend me that be awesome!
i would pay for lending me the parts.

[ZR]

Check the old pump for neg terminal on pump continuity to ground (mounting strap). If there is no connection, absolute fluke the new pump cured it for a short time.

[ZR]

If test comes back as showing neg terminal is grounded to the strap, do the same test on the new pump. If yes, pump is the culprit.

[Monera3v]

waiting to get home and do the testing!

[Monera3v]

with the pump facing up
1 2
3 4

^_ that how terminal looks like on the pump
1 is 12v power
4 is pump ground

2 and 3 are ground for sending unit

3 grounds and 1 power at the terminal.

when i touch the hat or pipes/strap that surround the pump there is no continuity

2 and 3 make contact with one and another

[ZR]

So no continuity between the pump ground terminal and the metal support bracket?

[ZR]

If no, next, unplug the pump plug and driver plug, check for continuity between pump ground terminal and the chassis.

[Monera3v]

No ground at all sir,

[ZR]

Unfortunately, that makes it a fluke replacing the pump did anything.
So with no ground to the pump body itself or in the wire from the fpdm to it's neg terminal, either the fpdm is fubar or it's being commanded to keep the pump at full tilt.
I'd still be inclined to double check the new pump before moving on. Figure out which terminal is power / ground. Disconnect the pump harness from the vehicle, feed the pump (+ terminal) full time power via a jumper wire, run ground to the mounting disc to see if it fires up. Pump won't run = it's fine.
Know you have a replacement FPDM and Fuel pressure sensor, no faith in that Dorman part (I return more of their parts either DOA outta the box or fail shortly after install), prudent move would be to try the pair of them in another vehicle to confirm they work ok. Reason I said don't ask to borrow someone else's, possible it's a wiring / short issue in your car, no upside to possibly damaging someone elses good parts.
With the amount of harness that has been previously opened up, makes it possible this is an old problem that has chosen to rear it's head again.

[Monera3v]

if all else fail, ill try and find someone with an O-scoop , and see if he can perform the test from the video posted above. if that shows duty is functioning i know their a short between fpdm and pump.
I wonder where the harness for the pump goes. could the tank of crushed the wire somewhere?

[Monera3v]

Once I give up, ill just hand it over to REDLINE in scarborough or Dasilva in pickering... What do you all think?

I have a truck for 2 week, So trying to get it fixed within the next 2 week , that way I don't gotta worry about renting

[ZR]

Wire damage would show up as continuity to ground in the test I gave you for the harness between the pump and driver module.

[Monera3v]

I'm off on Tuesday, I will perform all the test, but from an 04 diagram, there is a ground directly to the pump, but the FPDM intercepts mid way to the point

[Ray721]

Seemed to be working fine when you flew past me on the highway last night. lol.

Hopefully you get everything sorted out. Chasing gremlins sucks!

[Monera3v]

Seemed to be working fine when you flew past me on the highway last night. lol.

Hopefully you get everything sorted out. Chasing gremlins sucks!

Was this at like 1:30 am?

Meh at least i'm being spotted these day, poor 96 been on the road for 5 years and no one every spotted the poor sixxer.

Yea it hot outside... I don't think I want to pull the fuel pump out and ignite it loll...

I need a nice garage like ZR!!!

[Monera3v]

So i found this
we have 2 pumps and 2 sending units?! o.0 so maybe my 2nd pump is shot?!?!?!?!

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/2005-2010-mustang-gt-tech/274600-2005-mustang-gt-fuel-sending-unit.html

[ZR]

http://www.mustangfueltankproblemsslowtofill.com/images/dia1.gif

[ZR]

http://www.mustangfueltankproblemsslowtofill.com/images/dia2.gif

[Ponyryd]

So i found this
we have 2 pumps and 2 sending units?! o.0 so maybe my 2nd pump is shot?!?!?!?!

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/2005-2010-mustang-gt-tech/274600-2005-mustang-gt-fuel-sending-unit.html

2 senders, one pump.

[ZR]

Exactly that.

[Ray721]

Yeah about 1:30am sounds right. I was just putting along back from 99chromegt's BBQ. Too many OPP patrolling that night. I didn't even go over 120 and there were so many Douchebags that could have used a tune up that night lol

I switched the pump on my 06 it's not that difficult. Drive the car till it's damn near empty and then go for it.

Just remember when your knocking off the lock ring to use brass or wood. Don't use anything that can spark!

[Monera3v]

I been using 87 all winter long, is it possible that all that 87 10% ethanol to save on gas price, could a build up sulfur be on the sending unit.

I saw the video and there a sending pump on the passenger side that transfer the fuel from the right to the left! o.0 could that pump of went bad?! and is shorting out?

[Monera3v]

mms://multimedia.ford.com/seopts/Tech_37_250k.wmv they call it the jet transfer pump

@ 9:00 minute exact, you see the jet pump in the tank

[Monera3v]

Yeah about 1:30am sounds right. I was just putting along back from 99chromegt's BBQ. Too many OPP patrolling that night. I didn't even go over 120 and there were so many Douchebags that could have used a tune up that night lol

I switched the pump on my 06 it's not that difficult. Drive the car till it's damn near empty and then go for it.

Just remember when your knocking off the lock ring to use brass or wood. Don't use anything that can spark!



Did you have yellow fogs?

[Ray721]

Did you have yellow fogs?

Yup :)

[Ponyryd]

Try unplugging your frps and see what pressure the computer thinks it's at.

[Monera3v]

Try unplugging your frps and see what pressure the computer thinks it's at.

10-4

Home tomorrow, will strip and re test everything.

[Monera3v]

So.... I went out this morning and discovered a second issue. the harness next to the SJB was completely soaked with water, when i pulled apart the harness only but water came out of it.
Anyone has the pin out for that wire harness? I notice when i unhooked it the pump would not actuate!

Some of leads look corroded, I'm wondering if it getting poor contact

I used this thing called DUM DUM, kinda extreme sticky playdo they use back in days for windshields and fitted them under the cowl legs.

Hopefully that stop the water from getting inside.

blah So i tested the wiring

results were

with the key on, i'm getting 12.36 volt at PINk/black
0.05 volt drop

sending unit pins are getting 11.32 volt (does that make sense?)

[Monera3v]

This is with the Fuel rail pressure sensor disconnected,
1272
Fuel pressure sensor connected
1273
Fuel rail sensor on, pump disconnected and cranked to relieve fuel pressure from line(car ran for 3-5 second and stalled out)

as far as I can see.... when the FUEL RAIL PRESSURE SENSOR is connected the voltage dips into the negatives on keyon fuel pressure is 60 PSI , and while the engine running Duty is at 0.20% but still seeing 75 PSI at the rail

with the fuel rail pressure sensor disconnected , Seeing proper voltage , pump still running at 75% duty.


What I don't understand with the fuel pump disconnected... How come it seeing 25v at the pump

[Monera3v]

1274

Fuel rail sensor on, pump disconnected and cranked to relieve fuel pressure from line(car ran for 3-5 second and stalled out)

[Ponyryd]

Thing you need to figure out is, why is the pump being commanded on when it shouldn't. Corroded wires can do this-yes, by, very common, especially at a splice, connector, module, or fuse box. What you may need to do is run some test wires from front to back to eliminate the possibility of corrosion causing these problems.

[Monera3v]

Here is another weird thing... so at one point it said -0.34v, rev it to 4k, value came back -3.5v (PID actual voltage at fuel pump)

[Ponyryd]

-.34v at the feed wire to the pump? The car is running at this point? What are you using as ground?

[Monera3v]

ECU is seing -3v (PID saying -3v at the ACTUAL FUEL PUMP)

When unhook the plug it shows 12.2 with the keyon, and the sending unit wire see 11.32v

so ecu is not seeing proper voltage (only when the FRPS ) is plugged in it seems

[Ponyryd]

Right, so your numbers going to the ECM are false. This really, really sounds like corroded wiring, its really the only thing that will be fine for a while, then act up.

[ZR]

+1 on the above.
Did you recheck the harness you found full of water / some corrosion?

[Monera3v]

I'm trying to located where under the car the fuel pump wire runs 2! but car to low, and don't have no way of going under it!

[Monera3v]

Well I gave up the hunt for the electrical issue,but you guys were all right!

The wiring is shorting out! between the fuel rail pressure sensor , pump and ecu

that why when I would unplug the Fuel rail pressure sensor the voltage would should correctly! on sct data logger and back to the negatives when plugged in!!!

well redline is charging me 500, unfortunately it's my only car and needed this done. Due to time and not having any other way to get to work. I gave in and gave it to redline in scarborough

1 hour to find the issue
3 hours to replace the harness

[ZR]

Dirt cheap at that kinda $$.

[Ponyryd]

^I was gonna say the opposite, lol. We're under $100/hr here, they must be over by a bit. Regardless its good that its getting fixed.

[ZR]

I meant, they could have easily milked the figure it out hours, seems like an honest fix, don't hear of that so often these days.

[Ponyryd]

Ya, agreed, sounds about right time-wise.

[Monera3v]

So car is all fixed, the guys at Redline had no clue how the car was running, the fuel pump harness was crushed between the frame of the car and the tank, the wire deteriorated and made contact a serious ground loop( this explains -4v )
so they replace the entire wire end to end..car runs as it should

Also fixed the leak from the passenger side by plugging those holds at the cowls.

Let's hope this solves my issues, because I have already ordered all my suspension upgrades!

[Monera3v]

well the fact that I brought it in at 11am, and got it back at 5pm and IT got fixed.

I agree they could of milked me for HOURS! of probing and all that.

1 1/2 hour of probbing
3 hours including dropping the tank, replacing the wiring, testing etc


I'm happy...

[ZR]

That should have showed up in the ground test I suggested from the FPDM and the pump connector.

[Monera3v]

Yes sir! i did do the ground test. but it show no ground contact

after reading this paper it said the fuel pump return feed was crushed.

[ZR]

Makes no sense, pump is throttled via ground circuit. Wire from the FPDM to the pump should have shown a short to ground in the ground wire.
Anywho, good to hear it's fixed.

[Monera3v]

1320


voila the receipt !

[Monera3v]

I would like to THANK everyone who help me through this entire ordeal of finding the issue!

Thank you!

[Ponyryd]

Makes no sense, pump is throttled via ground circuit. Wire from the FPDM to the pump should have shown a short to ground in the ground wire.
Anywho, good to hear it's fixed.

IIRC this is a winter driven car, in that case I would bet that it was pretty green in there, so not fully shorting to ground, would also explain why it was running. Likely had one wire strand still somewhat intact which let it run and masked the short.

[Ponyryd]

Double post, disregard.

[Monera3v]

IIRC this is a winter driven car, in that case I would bet that it was pretty green in there, so not fully shorting to ground, would also explain why it was running. Likely had one wire strand still somewhat intact which let it run and masked the short.
next year she won't be driving in the winter, as plans were to supercharge it. I'm currently doing phase 1 and thats beefing up the suspension
follow by attacking electronics
and finally having all the supercharger parts including air to air cooler ready for installation!

unless someone has a better plan for me :P

[allicedout]

unless someone has a better plan for me :P

Trade it in for a Coyote! You'll thank me and yourself!!

[Monera3v]

Trade it in for a Coyote! You'll thank me and yourself!!

If I had not JUST bought this car... I may have thought about it.

But Knowing where my income stands and future goals, i rather piece by piece work on the 4.6 :P gotta save for a home soon -_-