Immigration, Jobs and the Growing Exodus to Retirement

[Gr8Stang]

The idea in the posed in the article sounds like a good one, though I'm sure there's going to be some contention for resources.

Some interesting (and somewhat scary) stats are also presented on how Canada is planning to tackle the growing number of people headed for retirement, and the short fall that's anticipated both in people to fill jobs as well as the worker to retired person ratios. Assume CPP premiums will have to rise for those left working...no?

One of the other things I wondered while reading this article; what about the number of immigrants coming and having kids born in Canada (assuming most come here in child bearing years)? Will that not affect our population growth as well?

https://ca.yahoo.com/news/liberals-plan-program-allow-communities-090000765.html

[92redragtop]

The idea in the posed in the article sounds like a good one, though I'm sure there's going to be some contention for resources.

Some interesting (and somewhat scary) stats are also presented on how Canada is planning to tackle the growing number of people headed for retirement, and the short fall that's anticipated both in people to fill jobs as well as the worker to retired person ratios. Assume CPP premiums will have to rise for those left working...no?

One of the other things I wondered while reading this article; what about the number of immigrants coming and having kids born in Canada (assuming most come here in child bearing years)? Will that not affect our population growth as well?

https://ca.yahoo.com/news/liberals-plan-program-allow-communities-090000765.html

Interesting proposal floated although I don't think it's that innovative (ie. been floated before in one form or another). The challenge is attracting said candidates to those communities and getting them to stay. The world is becoming more urbanized where services are readily available, mass transit, choice, etc., so that's where most will likely end up (local or newcomers). One thing is for sure, we don't want to be like Japan with a dying population.

[5.4MarkVIII]

The challenge is attracting said candidates to those communities and getting them to stay. The world is becoming more urbanized where services are readily available, mass transit, choice, etc., so that's where most will likely end up (local or newcomers).

this is a Huge problem.

business in my area are packing up and leaving because they cant find workers. others are looking to seasonal migrant workers. because they cant find people who want to work.

the raise in minimum only mad it worst for these companies.

as they leave those that were working for them loose out. add that to mega farms and European farm money causing farm land prizes to skyrocket, coupled with death taxes forcing family's out of farming. and small local small business being vilified by the government while big boxes keep crushing them. soon the rural areas will be bankrupt. its happening in the east coast where there is no longer enough people paying taxes in areas to cover costs. things are headed to wards a pretty big collapse.

[5.4MarkVIII]

why would newcomers work when they can get taken care of for free?

Thing is. It’s not just newcomers. The number of people born and raised here sitting on ei or welfare programs is staggering.

[hammerhead]

I can't blame young people for not wanting to work and there are many reasons to back this up. (laziness is not the top of the list) I really think this is an issue of capitalism killing itself off and there's a big movement coming. I feel fortunate that I'm at the tail end of the boomer era and although it wasn't easy I feel I'm in a position if I act accordingly to set myself up, as Legwound suggest "to take care of myself". As I crunch my numbers it's really not making a lot of sense to continue the way I have been. I've worked for as little as $8.00 per hour in the 90's, - because that's all I could get at the time, and on the flip side managed to buy a small home 1/2 hour North of Brampton for $64,000 during these hard times of the past. It seems before 2005 there was still opportunity without huge investment, small but still there. Opportunity in this country just doesn't exist as it did in the past. We've become a service sector resort and funds to be made are limited and highly competitive in this enviroment. Just in my area alone three service sector business's closed buy the end of 2019. Trudeau is harping about money to be made in the green movement and the Paris Accord. But we are so far behind Europe in this thinking that we have missed that boat by about ten years. Capitalism has basically, in my opinion squashed or is squashing the circle of life. I'm not saying there is no opportunity it could be very well a great time for opportunity, but I fear our leaders keep pushing opportunity away or not acting accordingly to flourish it!

[5.4MarkVIII]

Agree with the outlook but disagree with your cause.

I feel bigger government more intervention and crony capitalism are the reason for the down fall.

[ZR]

Got a kick out of the latest blah blah blah by the govt about how much better shape small biz's will be in after new incentives / tax breaks. So they added it up to an average of $1500 for a small business citing it could be put towards a new capital expenditure, paying the ever growing hydro bills or perhaps hiring a new person. Are they out of their collective freaking minds, just how far do they think even a frugal small business can stretch $1500??? In this country as a small business / self employed, treated like a leper by the financial system.

[hammerhead]

Got a kick out of the latest blah blah blah by the govt about how much better shape small biz's will be in after new incentives / tax breaks. So they added it up to an average of $1500 for a small business citing it could be put towards a new capital expenditure, paying the ever growing hydro bills or perhaps hiring a new person. Are they out of their collective freaking minds, just how far do they think even a frugal small business can stretch $1500??? In this country as a small business / self employed, treated like a leper by the financial system.

and where's it coming from...? lol

[Gr8Stang]

Merit based immigration.

People crossing illegally at Roxam (and other illegal crossing points) road are not coming to Canada because we need their skills.

In Toronto alone the Radison and now another very expensive former hydro building have been putting up illegals for quite some time. The flow is constant and increasing daily. None of those people are paying taxes. None of those people have contributed to Canada. All of them are adding burden to the system, including health care.

Assuming this population growth is going to add to the tax base for retiring boomers is a fallacy.

The best way to see how "these people" are not contributing is lack of media coverage.

If you hear anything it is from a "success story" which is an outlier.

If these new people were a net positive you'd have massive press coverage on how this entire group is contributing to their new home. What do you have, crickets.

Prepare to take care of yourself and have a plan for when you run out.

I believe the article is about skilled immigrants, not the ones coming across the border illegally, which is another situation (bad) altogether.

The issue in Canada appears to be two fold: a large number of people retiring in the next few years and a population growth that is zero or near zero, hence pushing the country to look for ways to keep it going. And per another comment in the thread; Canada is competing for these skilled resources.

The only real way to determine the economic success is to look at work force numbers and tax revenues.....and see if they are growing or shrinking. I think that would give an indication on whether or not the policy/plan is having the desired affect.

[Quicksilver]

every year it gets harder and harder to hire good workers. Last year I was looking for an operator for my loader. It was ridiculously hard to find anyone, and those could find wanted hourly wages and benefits that were simply out of my range. I finally found someone at $30/hr, but he left after 2 weeks for a union job at $45/hr plus a lot of benefits. How can a small company compete?

[92redragtop]

That variance seems odd - what kind of business can afford to pay a 50% premium on base pay plus benefits (18-20% on base comp) compared to market and still be sustainable?

[hammerhead]

Germany decommissioned coal and nuclear in favor of renewables and natural gas at great expense. They have some of the highest electricity costs in Europe. Renewables are unable to supply the demand, and suffer from intermittency. They are totally dependent on Russian natural gas.

France went nuclear and doesn't suffer from those ills.

If you think Europe made good choices with green energy, dig deeper.

this is an adjustment period - the European members of the Paris Accord are on target for the 2020 deadline which states all new buildings constructed must be self sustaining and produce their own power - this has spawned huge industry in the solar and wind energy. Industry that produces an array of solar collecting building materials from glass to roofing material to siding and also incorporates wind in the buildings construction and are all available (not like the glint in Musk's eyes that produces nothing but investor income) - many of the building materials are already in use long before the Accord deadline. Old buildings are being retrofitted with solar collecting building materials that look period correct. - we have missed this boat. Nobody will come to this over taxed country to build a lucrative business. Aside from building material they have honed building technology to build efficient homes and business's that cost penny's a week to heat and cool - all this in a nut shell will reduce the dependence on fossil fuel and curb the high cost of electricity- we have missed this boat and a pipeline to pump crude and more people to maintain the tax base is not the answer...It is quite amazing what is available there! We are a country of blind sheep! - edit: forgot to mention carbon tax - what the fuck is that going to do - our capitalistic government at work! it wont help with anyone's high energy cost!

[5.4MarkVIII]

That variance seems odd - what kind of business can afford to pay a 50% premium on base pay plus benefits (18-20% on base comp) compared to market and still be sustainable?

One in on government contracts would be my first guess.

[hammerhead]

One in on government contracts would be my first guess.

yep -have many mechanic friends go to the cities and get over paid DF gov. jobs on transit vehicles of all types...mega benefits and holidays out the ying yang - private sector cant compete - it will eventually have to end - it can kinda be seen currently with the teachers strike - government services are getting to costly for the average wage earner

[hammerhead]

first hit on google

now goggle "Passive House"

[hammerhead]

government produces nothing. Government wages do not reflect free market wages. If you're a manager it's easy to cave to wage demands if it's not coming out of your pocket. Over budget, no problem, bigger budget.

now we come full circle back to "we need more tax payers cause the current ones are rebelling and don't want to work" bring in immigrants who quickly learn "This Sucks"!

[92redragtop]

a tweet from Trudeau's alcoholic buddy and veterans affairs minister. Carbon tax goes into general revenue, not into "save the planet" stuff.

Is the tweet saying that carbon tax funds already go into general revenue or that the youth council (whoever that is) idea is allegedly proposing it should go into general revenue?

[92redragtop]

One in on government contracts would be my first guess.

I thought that might be the case but I didn't go there because of the sustainability aspect - private business cannot sustain at the same rate/duration as government because of the latter's ability to unilaterally "generate" revenue. Sustainability in business and government has different implications. If business to business comparison then the discussion may be about what the market rate actually is versus what's offered (albeit private industry union wages may be artificially higher but didn't think there was a 50% mark-up to market - you'd have to have massive margins to absorb that).

[hammerhead]

or smaller leaner efficient government.

Regulations aren't producing results we want, solution more regulations....

The beatings will continue until moral improves.

- - - Updated - - -



do we need government intervention to create a market demand for passive houses?

no government is not needed - this is just the start of the in depth research I've done on Europe and the Paris Accord and the green movement you eluded I should do. How it has generated a new thriving industry that we in North America are so far behind on - If the time is taken to see how efficient a passive home is, and how office towers in Europe are now being built - the cost of electricity will never enter your mind - producing gobs of electricity to meet demand is no longer a factor - buying natural gas from Russia and crude from Canada's pipeline will no longer be necessary and on and on, a few solar panels or roofing shingles will supply each house with enough energy to meet its demand - but it will take some in depth research to comprehend what I mean when I say "It's an adjustment period" it's temporary! Relying less on government is achievable and only raises one question in my mind about our government? We are part of the Accord and all we have is higher energy bills with a new carbon tax and no outlook for the future! Except raise taxes and bring more wet backs in to add to the dilemma... $30.00 an hour is not a lot of money in Canada - if I was forced out to work for the minimum, I would not work for someone period.

[92redragtop]

How clear a line do you need between the dots of "carbon taxes making roads and mental health better".

Last sentence (in combo with photo) in the tweet appears to add the context so I wouldn't make a logic leap - appears to be some form of Constituency meeting. I've hosted local ones and there are all sorts of ideas floated by constituents, both good and not so good ideas.

[hammerhead]

look into China and India within the Paris accord. Total sham

I believe China is not part of the Accord agreement (altho China has made a lot of advancements in green energy) - not sure about India (but likely not) Trump pulled USA out - I only say this because Canada, our government sold us on the fact, and aspired to be a world leader in Green Energy. They sold us on the fact that it would create countless jobs and a thriving economy. They sold us on the fact and made us feel responsible to the world. Instead of taking hold of a real opportunity and making it work for all of us they merely just created a tax that will do nothing. The day will likely come soon, as the Accord deadline quickly approach's and our government will not be ready and this may cost us all dearly or we are booted out. Wont be the first time I believe we where booted out think UN booted us out. This is not the land of opportunity with our current government - an interesting fact the political Green Party roots are from Europe and those countries are leading the way in this movement...Canada is way too late - is way over taxed - and needs to find a new colour to capitalize on cause green is taken we need to get out of the RED pardon the pun....lol. edit: just a little side note Canada is a world leader in the manufacture of Solar Panels (you wouldn't know it or even guess it)

[5.4MarkVIII]

this is an adjustment period - the European members of the Paris Accord are on target for the 2020 deadline which states all new buildings constructed must be self sustaining and produce their own power - this has spawned huge industry in the solar and wind energy. Industry that produces an array of solar collecting building materials from glass to roofing material to siding and also incorporates wind in the buildings construction and are all available (not like the glint in Musk's eyes that produces nothing but investor income) - many of the building materials are already in use long before the Accord deadline. Old buildings are being retrofitted with solar collecting building materials that look period correct. - we have missed this boat. Nobody will come to this over taxed country to build a lucrative business. Aside from building material they have honed building technology to build efficient homes and business's that cost penny's a week to heat and cool - all this in a nut shell will reduce the dependence on fossil fuel and curb the high cost of electricity- we have missed this boat and a pipeline to pump crude and more people to maintain the tax base is not the answer...It is quite amazing what is available there! We are a country of blind sheep! - edit: forgot to mention carbon tax - what the fuck is that going to do - our capitalistic government at work! it wont help with anyone's high energy cost!

was listening to a Joe Rogan podcast a couple weeks ago was talking with the gut from smoking tire I believe. and he was talking about the new museum / shop he was building in California. 4 years behind schedule and hundreds of thousands over budget because of the new rules and sustainability laws. that's why new builds have screeched to a halt in a lot of these places forcing this new tech that's not actually figured out yet.

[5.4MarkVIII]

I thought that might be the case but I didn't go there because of the sustainability aspect - private business cannot sustain at the same rate/duration as government because of the latter's ability to unilaterally "generate" revenue. Sustainability in business and government has different implications. If business to business comparison then the discussion may be about what the market rate actually is versus what's offered (albeit private industry union wages may be artificially higher but didn't think there was a 50% mark-up to market - you'd have to have massive margins to absorb that).

it just brings to mind. conversations about guys getting hundreds of dollars to replace a wall receptacle from the school board and a certain set of stairs that made the rounds a little while ago.

we had a gas leak in town a few weeks back. endbridge came out with 13 trucks and 16 guys. no more than 3 were working at any given time. this is something Im sure we have all seen. there seems to be a split perception that people have when dealing with government payed stuff vs preface company. I have a hard time getting people to pay $55 for a delivery that takes 2 guys an hour plus travel time. but people don't bat an eye when a company contracted to repave a road comes in millions over budget and the government just cuts the check.

I have family that works for bruce nuclear and they openly admit the money they make is absolutely Ludacris, but say why would they work anywhere else for less. try getting a private citizen to pay that for in home work.

there is no easy answer. its been something that has slowly pushed up over time and a slow fix isn't gonna do anything but get voted out the next election.

[5.4MarkVIII]

I believe China is not part of the Accord agreement (altho China has made a lot of advancements in green energy) - not sure about India (but likely not) Trump pulled USA out - I only say this because Canada, our government sold us on the fact, and aspired to be a world leader in Green Energy. They sold us on the fact that it would create countless jobs and a thriving economy. They sold us on the fact and made us feel responsible to the world. Instead of taking hold of a real opportunity and making it work for all of us they merely just created a tax that will do nothing. The day will likely come soon, as the Accord deadline quickly approach's and our government will not be ready and this may cost us all dearly or we are booted out. Wont be the first time I believe we where booted out think UN booted us out. This is not the land of opportunity with our current government - an interesting fact the political Green Party roots are from Europe and those countries are leading the way in this movement...Canada is way too late - is way over taxed - and needs to find a new colour to capitalize on cause green is taken we need to get out of the RED pardon the pun....lol. edit: just a little side note Canada is a world leader in the manufacture of Solar Panels (you wouldn't know it or even guess it)

china is in the accord. but has no limitations on output for another 20 or 30 years IIRC. Trump pulled out and then the US reduced their output by more than anyone else still in the accord.

the problems is the government intervention. low E houses are happening the tech has been increasing for quite awhile now. but IMO its important to let the free market work these things out. when the government steps in and starts throwing money around the same thing always happens some tech gets squashed. things force threw without proper testing and eventually we found out it was artificially inflated and didn't get us the net result.

there is tech being tested right now in texas. for filtration and efficient burning of natural gas for energy plants. they have a near 100% emission free plant operating on natural gas. there are groups trying to shut it down. why? is the goal not to be GHG free? this is.

I also look to what we are hurting in order to gain? like the old story of swallow the frog to catch the fly. we are forcing artificial advancement on energy tech to save on green house gasses at the expense of massive pollution form lithium mining and refining. whats worse?

[hammerhead]

china is in the accord. but has no limitations on output for another 20 or 30 years IIRC. Trump pulled out and then the US reduced their output by more than anyone else still in the accord.

the problems is the government intervention. low E houses are happening the tech has been increasing for quite awhile now. but IMO its important to let the free market work these things out. when the government steps in and starts throwing money around the same thing always happens some tech gets squashed. things force threw without proper testing and eventually we found out it was artificially inflated and didn't get us the net result.

there is tech being tested right now in texas. for filtration and efficient burning of natural gas for energy plants. they have a near 100% emission free plant operating on natural gas. there are groups trying to shut it down. why? is the goal not to be GHG free? this is.

I also look to what we are hurting in order to gain? like the old story of swallow the frog to catch the fly. we are forcing artificial advancement on energy tech to save on green house gasses at the expense of massive pollution form lithium mining and refining. whats worse?

Yes the whole basis around the Accord is "Transparency" the oxymoron in the concept is politicians...lol natural gas is mined - fracking is not favoured most - our political system has a problem with free market which I think is a problem for future growth - agree on mining lithium

[hammerhead]

I've been looking for a video that detailed the nuts and bolts of the accord, haven't been able to find it.

Paraphrasing though was this: China pledged to the same or worse than they targeted before the plan, likewise with India. Places like Nigeria stapled a sheaf of papers together that had little or nothing to do with the accord. In essence it was a feel good hug fest that didn't commit anyone to change except western countries and set out to maximize the number of signatures regardless of content.

Much like the 97% of scientist schtick. Chiropractors and like type folks were labelled climate scientists to pump up numbers.

This all presupposes CO2 is a problem. Watch a couple of Tony Heller videos where he uses facts, history, lots of data and debunks pretty much any alarmist report.

I personally don't have much interest in the Accord, climate change, or government - my whole motive or interest in this and the technology spurred from this, is can I use this technology to further separate myself from the government in the future, earn less money and pay less tax as a result, then die at a ripe age with nothing more than my middle finger in the air for those capitalist bastards who really have no interest in me or my friends unless it's feeding their machine....lol

[hammerhead]

I’d argue we’re governed in a more socialist manner, or at least it seems like the current left is working towards that end point.

I fully agree that maximum independence is a good goal. I have a non indexed pension in an inflationary world. The fewer things I need to buy the better insulated I’ll be from inflation. To that end energy and food independence seem to make sense. Goats will keep the weeds from over growing the solar panels.

While this a is good personal objective, confusing this with a government dictated program of perusing the most expensive energy by dictate is not the same thing.

not sure I understand your final statement - but the government needs to make this country attractive to business, then let business do what business does best - sure there's incentives but it's laughable - if I'm not mistaken Elon Musk grew up in the Canadian Prairies - many savvy and worth while ideas and people have left this country in the past. I'm not sure why government thinks they can operate business's like repair shops for transit system, to name a few. Mr. Dress ups dad was in love with Fidel, perhaps all the people on government assistance even at young ages is working up to socialism after all use eager ones are gone. I'm certain the Libs look and admire some of the Scandinavian country who operate with some sort of social programs. When the Libs ran Ontario before Dougie they where giving money to small business's in small rural towns in the form of monthly installments, to help them stay in operation - the blues shut this down almost immediately - so what you say about socialism could be true. Young people today lean this way and even in the USA good old Bernie is picking up steam as well as another young woman (name eludes me bust she young beautiful and Hispanic looking) is also making big social gains and in the richer states - Trump himself seems to favor the communist countries it seems - things are changing. Maybe the whole idea is to not attract business nobody can really know. Since my youth it would seem to me government has worked hard to make the people think they have all the answers and that we need them everyday in our lives...born a rebel will die a rebel...lol

[5.4MarkVIII]

as a small business owner in a rural area I can tell you the last liberal government wasn't giving anything to small business. things only got more expensive.

[hammerhead]

as a small business owner in a rural area I can tell you the last liberal government wasn't giving anything to small business. things only got more expensive.

They where - I read stories on this and how they said it was random selection, but when dougie shut it down many said they would need to close without the supplement - in small towns just north of you is one area - Kirkfield comes to mind - if you have ever been to Kirkfield no business could survive especially retail - The libs where also hashing around ideas of just giving people money to supplement their income...I think this idea came from some of the Scandinavian countries I mentioned earlier.

[92redragtop]

Government subsidies/incentives/tax breaks to businesses is picking winners. Unless all businesses get the same treatment they are picking winners. If all businesses get equal treatment then none need government intervention (other than regulation). As far as regulation goes I'm in favor of the government setting standards but staying out of enforcement. Businesses should transparently report on their product/service performance against those standards. The market will reward higher quality producers.

I disagree on Trump favoring communist countries. He's in the middle of a trade war with China. He's tough on Russia, North Korea, Cuba.

As far as personal versus government renewable energy; renewables are the most expensive form of energy. Fossil fuels are the cheapest. Modern society is built on cheap energy. If you choose to make yourself energy independent, it'll cost you a fair chunk of $$ with a long ROI, and it's your personal choice.

Governments forcing the citizens to give up cheap energy in favor of renewables removes choice.

Doesn't the fossil/coal industry still get large subsidies and tax breaks from taxpayers in all countries? Same with nuclear (industry would not exist today if not for massive subsidization or public ownership)? Wonder what the energy cost would be if all subsidies are removed?

[hammerhead]

as a small business owner in a rural area I can tell you the last liberal government wasn't giving anything to small business. things only got more expensive.

www.flare.com/news/doug-ford-changes-for-ontario/

Hey Josh - I couldn't find the original story I read, but this is a link to all of Doogies cuts early on - I was referring to one called "Basic Income Project" - It was a pilot project the liberals imposed to basically give low income people no-strings-attached money to help supplement - the original story I red was about person using this extra cash to support a small retail business in a small town and their concern was being able to stay in business without the extra cash injected by the libs - hence my confusion as a handout geared for small business - it was really for personally use in any degree....if you care to read it you will need to scroll way down in the article there's a lot of cuts...lol

[92redragtop]

www.flare.com/news/doug-ford-changes-for-ontario/

Hey Josh - I couldn't find the original story I read, but this is a link to all of Doogies cuts early on - I was referring to one called "Basic Income Project" - It was a pilot project the liberals imposed to basically give low income people no-strings-attached money to help supplement - the original story I red was about person using this extra cash to support a small retail business in a small town and their concern was being able to stay in business without the extra cash injected by the libs - hence my confusion as a handout geared for small business - it was really for personally use in any degree....if you care to read it you will need to scroll way down in the article there's a lot of cuts...lol

UBI has been floated/experimented with in various ways including the small pilot in Ontario (I believe other provinces as well). The idea in some places is that welfare payments are eliminated to offset but not sure if politicians have the balls to cut-off any existing programs. In the US, Andrew Yang's $1K per month for everyone is a variation of this UBI concept.

[hammerhead]

Doesn't the fossil/coal industry still get large subsidies and tax breaks from taxpayers in all countries? Same with nuclear (industry would not exist today if not for massive subsidization or public ownership)? Wonder what the energy cost would be if all subsidies are removed?

The Whynn Government was talking about phasing out natural gas and only supplying households with electricity (that's a no choice) we have 3-4 baseboard heaters in the basement to supplement on the real cold days (this was needed in the basement when I heated with wood) When they where in use my hydro bill for one month was 1000 plus dollars just to heat a small portion of the house - if I was strictly baseboard heaters throughout the house I'm guessing my bill would be in the 2-4000 dollar range per winter month...not cheap! The phase out would have taken up to 10-20 years

[92redragtop]

The Whynn Government was talking about phasing out natural gas and only supplying households with electricity (that's a no choice) we have 3-4 baseboard heaters in the basement to supplement on the real cold days (this was needed in the basement when I heated with wood) When they where in use my hydro bill for one month was 1000 plus dollars just to heat a small portion of the house - if I was strictly baseboard heaters throughout the house I'm guessing my bill would be in the 2-4000 dollar range per winter month...not cheap! The phase out would have taken up to 10-20 years

I believe both industries/types are subsidized. So is your food (especially meat).

[5.4MarkVIII]

www.flare.com/news/doug-ford-changes-for-ontario/

Hey Josh - I couldn't find the original story I read, but this is a link to all of Doogies cuts early on - I was referring to one called "Basic Income Project" - It was a pilot project the liberals imposed to basically give low income people no-strings-attached money to help supplement - the original story I red was about person using this extra cash to support a small retail business in a small town and their concern was being able to stay in business without the extra cash injected by the libs - hence my confusion as a handout geared for small business - it was really for personally use in any degree....if you care to read it you will need to scroll way down in the article there's a lot of cuts...lol

UBI does nothing for small business. and it was a big failure here in Ontario.

there were some "success stories" but they included someone buying a buss pass and someone else that was "running a small business" which was just one of those social media pep talk pyramid scams.

I remember clearly one of their small business help plans was to invest in better roads so business owner could get to work faster.

other than that they raised taxes, raised hydro rates, raised wages. ect ect ect

[5.4MarkVIII]

Government subsidies/incentives/tax breaks to businesses is picking winners. Unless all businesses get the same treatment they are picking winners. If all businesses get equal treatment then none need government intervention (other than regulation). As far as regulation goes I'm in favor of the government setting standards but staying out of enforcement. Businesses should transparently report on their product/service performance against those standards. The market will reward higher quality producers.

I disagree on Trump favoring communist countries. He's in the middle of a trade war with China. He's tough on Russia, North Korea, Cuba.

As far as personal versus government renewable energy; renewables are the most expensive form of energy. Fossil fuels are the cheapest. Modern society is built on cheap energy. If you choose to make yourself energy independent, it'll cost you a fair chunk of $$ with a long ROI, and it's your personal choice.

Governments forcing the citizens to give up cheap energy in favor of renewables removes choice.

yes Trump has been harder on those countries than Obama was.

tax breaks have show to increase business, but you are right it needs to be all the same. the issue with classic capitalisms. is one people have been taught to hate it despite. it being the single biggest influencer on bring people out of poverty. capitalizam has brought more people out of poverty world wide than any other government type or religion/ ideology.

the issue is when you go to far as we have and get into crony capitatim that favors the ultra rich, most often because of government intervention. the issue is this is 100% the consumers fault. for all the complaining and boycott BS. when it comes down to it people will go where they can save the most money. and that over time has forced a cheaper product and lower wages.

people still go to the big box stores, that undercut small business. forcing people our of half decent jobs in favor of part time minimum wage. and more money to the top.

and what's the result?

[92redragtop]

when it comes down to it people will go where they can save the most money. and that over time has forced a cheaper product and lower wages.

people still go to the big box stores, that undercut small business. forcing people our of half decent jobs in favor of part time minimum wage. and more money to the top.

and what's the result?

But isn't what you're describing capitalism and the competition/innovation it generates? It is not about creating higher profit/wages for small business owners or employees - it's just economic Darwinism. The fastest/best will survive.

[92redragtop]

doesn't change the fact that renewables are the most expensive energy.

So was electricity, fossil fuels, and nuclear before government and/or taxpayer subsidies built all the infrastructure to facilitate economic transactions for these types at scale.

[92redragtop]

what's your point.

We have lots of cheap fossil fuels and are being forced to convert to super expensive renewables. We don't need to expand capacity to expensive when we can expand capacity with cheap.

What is the need to change?

Cheap now but was expensive previously. Cars were outrageously expensive back when everyone used horses for everything but now we use cars. Should we not have changed from horses to cars? I guess if we didn't think it was possible to change back then we would be on a Mustang forum today discussing mods to "real" Mustangs (the ones with four legs) with a different kind of whine (or whinny?). You could have asked the same question 50 years ago or 100 years ago and we wouldn't have what we have today if we assume change is bad. We're just repeating now what we've done over and over in history - innovation and evolution. Or we would go extinct.

[92redragtop]

Nope, cars had the same naysayers in the early days and significant pushback from the incumbent industries just like today until later when a few things came together (including Henry Ford's mass production and installment payment concepts which came later) to form the tipping point. Without governments building road infrastructure (1916 Federal Aid Road Act, 1921 Federal Highway Act), etc, supporting building of fuel transportation and distribution via tax incentives/grants/research (btw, these are paid for by taxpayers), etc., they may not have hit the tipping point at all or would have hit a lot later.

[5.4MarkVIII]

But isn't what you're describing capitalism and the competition/innovation it generates? It is not about creating higher profit/wages for small business owners or employees - it's just economic Darwinism. The fastest/best will survive.

I do t think so. Capital Islam is a fair exchange of goods and services. Weather it be a product or work for money. So when big corporations come into an area and undercut to starv out any competition. I think that is where the failure is.

Ideally the consumer would see the big pictures and support the smaller company that’s providing the better wage as well as the knowledge and service on a given product. Which should force better pay. Somewere along the line the hunt for the cheapest price no has trumped customer service and community in the eyes of the average consumer. No system is perfect and I thing this is the major fault in capitalism. Some people call it greed on. Shave of the corporate. I see it as human greed all along.

As an example the most common demand and complaint I get is for free delivery. But a tyipical deliver is an hour with 2 guys plus travel time standard hook up s and even product lessons. I pay a decent wage and provide my guys with the equipment to do the job. This comes at a cost. At my rate of $55 I’m not making money on the delivery.

Some people would rather save that 55 and go to a place that pays minimum and drops it at their door but they always complain about lack of service. But next time they are back to the lower cost and complaining again.

[5.4MarkVIII]

Nope, cars had the same naysayers in the early days and significant pushback from the incumbent industries just like today until later when a few things came together (including Henry Ford's mass production concept which came later) to form the tipping point. Without governments building road infrastructure, etc, supporting building of fuel transportation and distribution via tax incentives/grants/research (btw, these are paid for by taxpayers), etc., they may not have hit the tipping point at all or would have hit a lot later.



I only think your half right. Roads. Fuel(food) stops were being built all along even where there was just horses. It wasn’t about promoting a certain industry be it horses, cars or trains, it was more about ease of travel and connecting the country.

I think the push to e cars is different. I could be wrong but I don’t think the government outlawed horses and forced people,into cars by a set date. The market evolved and changed over time.

[92redragtop]

were there roads before cars?

show me the taxation that subsidized cars over horses

Federal and State programs to build infrastructure to support cars (if I recall correctly, taxpayers pay for government programs)....cars weren't going anywhere since early trails/tracks were for horses and cars were getting stuck until Feds and States got involved and allocated tax revenue to road building (as well as gas taxes).

[92redragtop]

Excerpt from the book: Routledge Handbook of Modern Economic History (edited by Robert Whaples, Randall E. Parker)

19138


History.com: Excerpt from: Automobile History

The Model T was intended to be “a farmer’s car” that served the transportation needs of a nation of farmers. Its popularity was bound to wane as the country urbanized and as rural regions got out of the mud with passage of the 1916 Federal Aid Road Act and the 1921 Federal Highway Act.



WIKI: Excerpt from: Automotive industry in the United States

American road system
See also: Interstate Highway System

The "final" U.S. Highway plan as approved November 11, 1926[7]
The practicality of the automobile was initially limited because of the lack of suitable roads. Travel between cities was mostly done by railroad, waterways, or carriages. Roads were mostly dirt and hard to travel, particularly in bad weather. The League of American Wheelmen maintained and improved roads as it was viewed as a local responsibility with limited government assistance. During this time, there was an increase in production of automobiles coupled with a swell of auto dealerships, marking their growth in popularity.

State involvement
State governments began to use the corvee system to maintain roads, an implementation of required physical labor on a public project on the local citizens. Part of their motivation was the needs of farmers in rural areas attempting to transport their goods across rough, barely functioning roads (article).

The other reason was the weight of the wartime vehicles. The materials involved altered during World War I to accommodate the heavier trucks on the road and were responsible for widespread shift to macadam highways and roadways. However, rural roads were still a problem for military vehicles, so four wheel drive was developed by automobile manufacturers to assist in powering through. As the prevalence of automobiles grew, it became clear funding would need to improve as well and the addition of government financing reflected that change.

Federal involvement
The Federal Aid Road Act of 1916 allocated $75 million for building roads. It was also responsible for approving a refocusing of military vehicles to road maintenance equipment. It was followed by the Federal Aid Highway Act of 1921 provided additional funding for road construction. By 1924, there were 31,000 miles of paved road in the U.S.[8]

[hammerhead]

if only Henry invented the Jeep first - driving to work would be a lot of fun - no need for roads - and with all that fun everyone would want to drive to work eliminating the need to bring in immigrants - I think every car from now on should be a Jeep - the government can create jobs removing all the roads - Driving thru places like Detroit Michigan will be a blast - install wench setups on every route - every route will be a scenic route - save money on salt - pile up all the extracted asphalt with rocks to create challenging hill climbs to the office - use all the old cars on a Monster Jam route - everyday would be dress down day - the possibilities are endless.... "sorry I'm late boss, rolled the Jeep on the hill climb and landed in the Don River" How much fun would that be - life and the commute would be exciting - all the pansies can take the Jeep Bus - and in the summer 2 strokes.... I'm in

[5.4MarkVIII]

https://youtu.be/m1rlyl8VZFM

[paradigm]

Between the bleeding heart socialist government, the open door free for all policies, the lack of job opportunities, salaries staying relatively flat compared to the 300% plus increase in real estate over a short period of time, and the blatent squandering of tax payers money, I am very happy I left Toronto for the USA.

I don't care if trump is an idiot or not, I am way better off now than I ever did before and the opportunities here are just abundant for skilled people.