Boeing 737 MAX8

[RedSN]

Anyone flying on a Boeing 737 MAX8 soon? Grounded in Canada now too.

Figured it deserved it's own thread. Surprised it took Canada so long to ground these aircraft. Should have been grounded immediately in my opinion. Two planes falling out of the sky in similar fashion within months of each other suggests more than just a coincidence.


"There are -- and I hasten to say not conclusive -- but there are similarities" between the Ethiopian Airlines flight profile and that of a Lion Air flight involving the same aircraft that crashed off the Indonesian coast in October, [Marc Garneau] said. Those similarities, he said, "exceed a certain threshold in our minds with respect to the possible cause of what happened in Ethiopia. This is not conclusive, but it is something that points possibly in that direction, and at this point we feel that threshold has been crossed. The "safety notice" means none of the aircraft can fly into, out of, or over Canada, he added: "I will not hesitate to take swift action should we discover any additional safety issues."
I get that one needs to reserve caution when making a statement, but this seems excessively so. Are we trying to not hurt Boeing's feelings?
It's usually better to wait for facts rather than jump to conclusions, but in this case I think ground the planes while you get the facts. Seems like a no-brainer.
Ground them if for no other reason than to avoid hysteria at the gate as people refuse to get on the plane.

[Laffs]

Agree on all counts. There are coincidences and then there are correlations. Such a new aircraft with two similar incidents resulting in massive loss of life requires an depth assessment of the craft. Honestly with the rate at which the Max 8 was sold and based on the major carrier discounts from MSRP wouldn't shock me to find there were faults missed that more indepth testing would have caught or overlooked flaws.

Like you said, seemed to more emphasis put on protecting a companies share price vs protecting further incident. Also when the average populous begins to know and questions the make model and sub model of their air transit, there's an issue.

[WTF]

heard some #s this morning

there's like 300ish of these new Max 8 planes flying around the world....2 have crashed in the last 6 months

there's like 48,000 planes in the sky of older but comparable models

ah yeah...ground them and figure out wtf is wrong

[92redragtop]

I believe the MAX8 is more automated than its predecessor the 737-800 and even turning off auto-pilot requires additional steps versus the older models. They were pointing to pilot error and training on the new planes with the Lion Air crash, and apparently Boeing issued updated training guidelines after that crash - so with a second crash, is it pilot error/training issue or hardware/software issue? We have a few clients with this model in their fleet so were reaching out yesterday to see what their plans were and how it would affect them (one grounded their MAX8's proactively yesterday).

Boeing has political ties in North America so curious to see what happens next in the US.

[RedSN]

...is it pilot error/training issue or hardware/software issue?
May very well be pilot error/training, but if the hardware/software is doing something that causes the pilot to make an error, then that also seems to be a flaw.
Like if the plane does something, and your instinctive pilot skills say you should do this, but that's the exact wrong thing to do on this plane ....training or not, that's a problem.

[92redragtop]

May very well be pilot error/training, but if the hardware/software is doing something that causes the pilot to make an error, then that also seems to be a flaw.
Like if the plane does something, and your instinctive pilot skills say you should do this, but that's the exact wrong thing to do on this plane ....training or not, that's a problem.

Agreed.

This is CNN so take with a grain of salt.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/13/us/pilot-complaints-boeing-737-max/index.html

[RedSN]

In November, after the Lion Air crash, Boeing issued an "Operations Manual Bulletin" advising airline operators how to address erroneous cockpit readings. It pointed airlines "to existing flight crew procedures to address circumstances where there is erroneous input from an AOA sensor," a Boeing statement said. The FAA later issued its own emergency airworthiness directive that advised pilots about how to respond to similar problems.
I would rather they fix the erroneous sensor.

[92redragtop]

In this case I don't see why CNN would have an agenda either way.

I wonder if there is a big competition for sales to a particular client(s) between Boeing and Airbus going on right now.

My guess will be either pilot error and/or maintenance deficiencies.

Not sure about agenda but they may be too hasty to break some aspect of the unfolding story first.

The FAA has grounded this aircraft model now as well.

[hammerhead]

I don't know much about planes but in this modern time I would look to software - in the trucking industry with high emission expectations mandated by the gov. Brand new trucks have a gazillion sensors and sensitivity to emissions and are D rating and shutting down in their tracks. Many times on the open road. The new systems also require very expensive routine emissions maintenance that usually get push aside or not done due to urgency and to reduce down time - I could believe it to software

[Biz]

Wouldn't be surprised it's software or even Pilot error at this point.
AC has 24 in it's fleet and WJ has 13. The bigger disruption is they aren't even allowed in Canadian airspace at this point.
Timing couldn't be worse with March Break in full swing.
Canada really didn't have a choice as most other countries flying the Max are grounding them.
The public outcry wouldn't be worth the headache. Safety should always be first.

EDIT: Trump has just grounded the max in the US as well. (74 jets)

[Laffs]

I don't know much about planes but in this modern time I would look to software - in the trucking industry with high emission expectations mandated by the gov. Brand new trucks have a gazillion sensors and sensitivity to emissions and are D rating and shutting down in their tracks. Many times on the open road. The new systems also require very expensive routine emissions maintenance that usually get push aside or not done due to urgency and to reduce down time - I could believe it to software

Agreed, complexity outpaces ability a lot when targets and standards are thrust upon an industry by regulatory entities that don't understand the engineering behind meeting these requirments. On that note, sometimes I have nightmares where I wake up screaming 'MAXXFORCE, NOOOOOOOO!"

[hammerhead]

May shape up to be another government bail out by the sounds of it

[Snaketamer]

Hope Boeing, et al... get this figured out. Such a needless loss of life.

Friends were heading out of T.O. this morning on Air Canada....they were booked on a Max8...looks like they made it out...on a different plane.

[stangstevers]

Are they finding ways to automate piloting more and more so they can either use "cheaper" pilots (requiring less training, less math skills) or be able to stretch pilot's capacity no longer factoring errors from fatigue?

[hammerhead]

Are they finding ways to automate piloting more and more so they can either use "cheaper" pilots (requiring less training, less math skills) or be able to stretch pilot's capacity no longer factoring errors from fatigue?

I read a story on CBC says the new jet is an old model retro- fitted with a new engine. A bigger engine to get better fuel mileage - without redesigning the plane to accommodate the new engine it was causing a nose dive issue and software was designed to correct the issue but pilots not informed. This is all speculation from an engineer not the bible - but with all the planes grounded stock prices are tanking - it reminds me of the airbag situation a few years ago - short take on the story

[RedSN]

https://leehamnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/737NG-vs-MAX-nacelles.png

The nacelles for the MAX are larger and placed higher and further forward of the wing,

Interesting technical article:
https://leehamnews.com/2018/11/14/boeings-automatic-trim-for-the-737-max-was-not-disclosed-to-the-pilots/
Note the date on the article is Nov. 2018.


It’s probably this counterintuitive characteristic, which goes against what has been trained many times in the simulator for unwanted autopilot trim or manual trim runaway, which has confused the pilots of JT610
^^^what I was saying in post #5

[Laffs]

Awesome article, thanks for posting that.

[hammerhead]

Have a friend who's an airline engineer and we use to talk about emissions and years ago they were beginning to get pressure from the gov. Like all other mods of transportation - Maybe this was a attempt for less pollution using less fuel but cheeping out on the design - end users would eatup the concept of saving money on fuel

[92redragtop]

No it's about fuel. They all took a hit on their income statements in 2018 due to higher jet fuel costs and a lot of the recent/upcoming fleet upgrades will help with fuel efficiency/cost per seat mile, and range flexibility to be able to switch between sun destinations and Europe with same fleet, depending on season). Transat just released their Q1 2019 results today and they're still dealing with higher fuel prices (among other things). Their competitors were also dealing with the same issue in their 2018 results and I expect to see similar when their 2019 quarterly results start to come out.

[Biz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBqDcUqJ5_Q&t=6s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBqDcUqJ5_Q&t=6s

Interesting breakdown.

[ZR]

Great watch, thanks Biz.

[RedSN]

Indonesia’s Lion Air considered putting its pilots through simulator training before flying the Boeing Co. 737 Max but abandoned the idea after the planemaker convinced them in 2017 it was unnecessary, according to people familiar with the matter and internal company communications.

“Now friggin Lion Air might need a sim to fly the MAX, and maybe because of their own stupidity. I’m scrambling trying to figure out how to unscrew this now! idiots,” one Boeing employee wrote in June 2017 text messages obtained by the company and released by the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee.

In response, a Boeing colleague replied: “WHAT THE F%$&!!!! But their sister airline is already flying it!” That was an apparent reference to Malindo Air, the Malaysian-based carrier that was the first to fly the Max commercially.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/boeing-thwarted-lion-air-idiots-call-for-737-max-training-before-deadly-crash-1.1373362

Boeing just keeps looking worse and worse the deeper they dig into this.

[RedSN]

MAX is back.


U.S. allows Boeing to resume 737 MAX flights
...Canada not yet.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/boeing-737-faa-1.5806139


The FAA is requiring new training to deal with a key safety system called MCAS, which is faulted for the two fatal crashes, as well as significant new safeguards and other software changes.

[83 5.0]

Possibly could be the safest plane in the air now after all the scrutiny.

[Zutz2v]

Couldn’t pay me to get on one


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