Drive clean...

[Stephen06GT]

Waiting my turn for what I hope is the last Drive Clean test Ol Paint will ever need. I know the testing ends in April 2019 but I don’t want any surprises in March when it is time for a new sticker. On top of that all the monitors are “green”, so OP should sail right through this.

[RedSN]

I just got my notice to renew. I’m going to wait it out.

[Stephen06GT]

All done. Passed with flying colours. Good for 12 months so there should be no issues come sticker renewal time.

[hammerhead]

I just got my notice to renew. I’m going to wait it out.

friend of mine waited to long after his birthday and they wanted him to get a new safety - he waited that out for another year and was able to get the sticker on his next birthaday without a safety fyi that was a maybe 5yrsago or so....

[Gr8Stang]

Congrats on passing....that will be the last one you'll ever need! Just got my renewal sticker notices and no more E-tests for me. Woohoo!!

[Laffs]

Congrats, waiting mine out until April, car hasn't had a sticker since 2017.

[RedSN]

friend of mine waited to long after his birthday and they wanted him to get a new safety - he waited that out for another year and was able to get the sticker on his next birthaday without a safety fyi that was a maybe 5yrsago or so....
What was the reasoning for requiring a safety certificate to renew his permit? I have never had that issue before, and have renewed my permit several times in the spring even tho my birthday is in the winter.


When you need a certificate

You need a safety standard inspection and certificate if you are:

registering a rebuilt vehicle
transferring a used vehicle to a new owner (unless the new owner is your spouse)
registering a vehicle in Ontario that was bought in or came from another province, territory or country
changing the status of a vehicle from unfit to fit

I don't see "renewing an expired permit" anywhere on that list.

[hammerhead]

What was the reasoning for requiring a safety certificate to renew his permit? I have never had that issue before, and have renewed my permit several times in the spring even tho my birthday is in the winter.


I don't see "renewing an expired permit" anywhere on that list.

I'm not sure just what he told me - I never heard of it before until then - maybe he didn't tell me the whole story??? - I've done it late in the past a well never had a problem but i wa only a month or two late... i think he was beyond six months

[90GT]

So...I didnt need an E test this past season. Come the spring, if I wait until after April, I wont need an E test on my 1990 ?

[ZR]

Waiting till after April to renew mine as well.

[Stephen06GT]

So...I didnt need an E test this past season. Come the spring, if I wait until after April, I wont need an E test on my 1990 ?

I have (had) the same issue. My concern was that come April or May when I take the car out and go to get my sticker, they would tell me that because my renewal date was in March that I still need the test. I just didn’t want to take that chance.

[ZR]

Wanted to do the same but time was my enemy and it just didn't happen.

[ZR]

Been part of a few conversations off the board where some are making plans to remove cats / EGR etc once drive clean is scrapped. It will still be illegal to do so and if they do indeed step up the on road enforcement, those contemplating such an move should think long and hard before doing so. It's just so easy to determine a vehicle your following has no cats, cause it stinks.

[Slick_89_Hatch]

I worry about this as well....as few ass hats are going to ruin it for all the legit folks.

[hammerhead]

The MTO and OPP work together a lot now - I think the MTO will also move to doing car inspection with the OPP - remember the Kinston Blitz late summer, pulling plates of 50% of the modified cars that where inspected (that's a lot of modified cars in Kingston, yah right).These inspection crop up quite regularly in the past - the government needs money, Especially when those Liberal bastards just start wasting it on gas plants and forgiving loans to big corps like Chrysler - don't forget Torrie - he's back and hates loud cars, guns meh what are you gonna do? We'll pass the buck on that one there's no money in stopping guns!

[Screw]

Just got 3 to renew w/drive clean req , can I leave the mustang till spring and avoid it ?

[True Blue]

Just got 3 to renew w/drive clean req , can I leave the mustang till spring and avoid it ?

I don't see why you can't. Just know you'll be paying the full sticker cost, when it comes time to do the renewal in April.

[Laffs]

I have (had) the same issue. My concern was that come April or May when I take the car out and go to get my sticker, they would tell me that because my renewal date was in March that I still need the test. I just didn’t want to take that chance.

This is also my fear however if they no longer have the mandate to require it I doubt many garages will still offer the service. It's going to be interesting to see how implementation takes place, will there be a retroactive requirement or not.

[Stephen06GT]

This is also my fear however if they no longer have the mandate to require it I doubt many garages will still offer the service. It's going to be interesting to see how implementation takes place, will there be a retroactive requirement or not.

I sent a letter to the Ministry asking about this. We should know more in 15 days.

[hsousa88]

Just got 3 to renew w/drive clean req , can I leave the mustang till spring and avoid it ?

Pretty sure you can. I failed the etest in September one year and just waited till the next spring to do it.

[Laffs]

I sent a letter to the Ministry asking about this. We should know more in 15 days.

Anxiously await the response, thanks!

[Stephen06GT]

Well, that was a fast reply:

Hello,

Thank you for contacting Ontario’s Drive Clean.

Please be advised that as of April 1st, 2019, emissions test will no longer be required for any light-duty vehicles and heavy-duty gas vehicles.

If 2019 is a testing year for your vehicle and the stickers are set to expire prior to the program cancellation date, then emissions test will be required for sticker renewal and in order to drive the vehicle. However, if the vehicle is off the road during the renewal date and will return on the road on or after April 1st, 2019, emissions test will not be required.

Should you require further clarification, please provide the following information:

- Vehicle Identification Number (VIN)
- License Plate Number
- Type of Transaction or Purpose of Test (Renewal/Private Transfer/Family Transfer/First Time Registration)
- Sticker Renewal Date (if applicable)
- Fuel Type (Gas/Diesel)
- Name of City & Postal Code in Ontario of registration (as indicated on vehicle ownership)

Do not hesitate to contact us should you have any further questions or concerns.

Regards,

Tahmina
Customer Service Representative
Ontario’s Drive Clean Program
1-888-758-2999
Out-of-Province, please dial 905-943-4897 (Charges will be assumed by the caller)

[Laffs]

Well sounds like I'm waiting until April 2nd to register and drive the Mustang.

[WTF]

thanks for doing that Stephen

was planning in getting the Morgan sticker after April 1st.......got no worries now

[Laffs]

x2 on the thanks, takes a load off my mind.

[Ponyryd]

Well sounds like I'm waiting until April 2nd to register and drive the Mustang.

I’ll be doing this as well with two vehicles, my birthday is in March, so for me it’s worth the wait/risk just to not be hassled having to get both of the cars tested.

[Stephen06GT]

TTT just in case you missed it the first time around.

[Ponyryd]

Just a couple more weeks of evading the fuzz and I’ll be legal again!

[ZR]

​Best of news.

[stangstevers]

I'm hoping the penalty for driving without cats and smog is increased with this whole thing. It shouldn't be a green light for making cars smell like wet farts and give environmentalists more ammunition to ban old cars.

[hsousa88]

I'm hoping the penalty for driving without cats and smog is increased with this whole thing. It shouldn't be a green light for making cars smell like wet farts and give environmentalists more ammunition to ban old cars.

Think that would ever happen? Ban old cars?

[RedSN]

I'm hoping the penalty for driving without cats and smog is increased with this whole thing.
It's already illegal to drive without cats ($300). That's more severe than driving without a license.



Uniformed environmental officers do roadside inspections of: light and heavy-duty vehicles – ensure they are operating properly with the required emissions controls to reduce smog-causing pollutants
A VEEU environmental officer, who should have government identification, can legally stop and inspect your vehicle at any time to ensure your compliance with the Environmental Protection Act and its regulations. A VEEU environmental officer may inspect your vehicle because: it is producing visible smoke, it has been reported as a polluter, an officer suspects that your emissions equipment has been removed, altered or is not functioning. If your vehicle is found to be polluting, you may: be issued a ticket ($300 for light-duty vehicles), receive an order to repair the vehicle, have your licence plates taken away if it’s smoking heavily.
https://www.ontario.ca/page/vehicle-emissions-inspections
http://www.ontariocourts.ca/ocj/how-do-i/set-fines/set-fines-i/schedule-43/

[ZR]

Driving without cats etc, plates removed on the spot n tow. Only way peeps are going to start taking it more serious.

[stangstevers]

Think that would ever happen? Ban old cars?

Unlikely tbh however you never know. Next gen drivers aren't "car guys".

[hammerhead]

Think that would ever happen? Ban old cars?

They won't ban old cars but they could pass laws to bring them up to modern standards - they will also enforce pollution controls on vehicles related to the period of which the car was a produced - they do that already but without etest I'm sure roadside inspections will increase - I have buddies busted for things like cats and no air pump - if you have a car that has removed pollution best to stay out of hit spots - I see pollution cops all the time in the city during regular working hours thru the weekdays during warmer months - their main target or a favorite are diesel pickups with bully dogs and emissions removed - I think the gov. I slowly moving the MTO cops into mainstream and not just transport trucks. They all need cash and this will be a more effective way to get it opposed to the etest

[RedSN]

- their main target or a favorite are diesel pickups with bully dogs and emissions removed -
Bro-dozers are not exactly inconspicuous.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachments/insert-bs-here-4/150891-vw-responsible-rolling-global-coal-warming-btjbffdcaaiowiq.jpg?dateline=1443145461

[Laffs]

Bro-dozers are not exactly inconspicuous.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachments/insert-bs-here-4/150891-vw-responsible-rolling-global-coal-warming-btjbffdcaaiowiq.jpg?dateline=1443145461

I know I'm supposed to be above this but I still think that looks fuckin awesome.

[hammerhead]

Lol looks like Melanchthon

[Laffs]

Looks like every rural Ontario town with a Tim Hortons, a bar, a high school and farmers with sons.

[Hutch]

Bro-dozers are not exactly inconspicuous.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachments/insert-bs-here-4/150891-vw-responsible-rolling-global-coal-warming-btjbffdcaaiowiq.jpg?dateline=1443145461

Trucks like this really piss me off. All that smoke is really bad for the environment. Southern Ontario has very high rates of respiratory problems and that just contributes to it. I don’t want me kids breathing that crap in. Same with not running cats. I know it sounds great but unless your making big horsepower number it doesn’t make that much of a difference removing them. I was out with a friend in his car and even with the windows down I smelled like fuel and had to take a shower when I got home. That never happens to me when I’m out driving mine.
The mto has started to ramp up inspections for highway truck. I know of a driver reciently that had to pay over $27k in fines and the cost to put his truck back to OEM after treatment. I was glad he got caught. I see trucks come in all the time that have holes punched through the DPF. I also know that there are several shops in Brampton that do aftertreatment deletes all day long.

[Laffs]

Trucks like this really piss me off. All that smoke is really bad for the environment. Southern Ontario has very high rates of respiratory problems and that just contributes to it. I don’t want me kids breathing that crap in. Same with not running cats. I know it sounds great but unless your making big horsepower number it doesn’t make that much of a difference removing them. I was out with a friend in his car and even with the windows down I smelled like fuel and had to take a shower when I got home. That never happens to me when I’m out driving mine.
The mto has started to ramp up inspections for highway truck. I know of a driver reciently that had to pay over $27k in fines and the cost to put his truck back to OEM after treatment. I was glad he got caught. I see trucks come in all the time that have holes punched through the DPF. I also know that there are several shops in Brampton that do aftertreatment deletes all day long.

Best avoid ever taking a cruise.

[Hutch]

Best avoid ever taking a cruise.

I don’t have that problem in my car and most cars on the road don’t have cat deletes. But like it was said before, some people will ruin it (the hobby) for everyone. The newer generations don’t believe in cars at all and if they do they want full electric. I’m also about not giving a reason for anyone to come after me or my hobby.

[Laffs]

I don’t have that problem in my car and most cars on the road don’t have cat deletes. But like it was said before, some people will ruin it (the hobby) for everyone. The newer generations don’t believe in cars at all and if they do they want full electric. I’m also about not giving a reason for anyone to come after me or my hobby.

I meant a boat cruise. Cruise ships pollute somewhere equivalent to 1 million passenger vehicles.

[Hutch]

I meant a boat cruise. Cruise ships pollute somewhere equivalent to 1 million passenger vehicles.

Haha. I was a little confused. I have never been on a cruise and don’t really see the enjoyment of them. I’d rather be on a beach.

[RedSN]

Best avoid ever taking a cruise.

Cruise ships pollute somewhere equivalent to 1 million passenger vehicles.

Best avoid ever buying stuff.


[container ships] can produce the same amount of pollution as 50 million cars. The emissions from 15 of these mega-ships match those from all the cars in the world.
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/10/29/heres-how-ship-owners-plan-to-cheat-on-carbon-emissions-reduction-plan/

[Laffs]

Best avoid ever buying stuff.


https://cleantechnica.com/2018/10/29/heres-how-ship-owners-plan-to-cheat-on-carbon-emissions-reduction-plan/

I was going there next...

[Hutch]

Best avoid ever buying stuff.


https://cleantechnica.com/2018/10/29/heres-how-ship-owners-plan-to-cheat-on-carbon-emissions-reduction-plan/

Some things we can help out with easier than others.

[stangstevers]

I wonder what goes on in ones head to think that rollin' coal is cool?

To be honest I can't answer the same question related to smoking rubber though :/

[Hutch]

I wonder what goes on in ones head to think that rollin' coal is cool?

To be honest I can't answer the same question related to smoking rubber though :/

Both are people that enjoy wasting money

[hammerhead]

Www.theguardian.com\notesandqueries\query\0,,-1852,00.html

A little converter talk....

[RedSN]

A lot of false or misleading info in that ‘speculative science’ discussion.

A catalytic converter is not that complicated. It does what it’s name says. It converts emissions using a catalyst into less harmful emissions. It does not eliminate emissions. Well, that would require some sort of a catalytic eliminator, which is a concept so ridiculous it makes me want to laugh out loud and chortle...

[hammerhead]

A lot of false or misleading info in that ‘speculative science’ discussion.

A catalytic converter is not that complicated. It does what it’s name says. It converts emissions using a catalyst into less harmful emissions. It does not eliminate emissions. Well, that would require some sort of a catalytic eliminator, which is a concept so ridiculous it makes me want to laugh out loud and chortle...

I think they tried something like that with diesel and called it regen for short lol didn't last long and now they ammonia injection called DEF - does it work - some say not but the system is a real pain in the ass for trucking companies and very expensive to maintain. I think if I had a trucking company I would close the doors and let the suits Figure out how to get the freight to the shelve...CAT was the only smart one to get out of trucking all together

[Hutch]

I think they tried something like that with diesel and called it regen for short lol didn't last long and now they ammonia injection called DEF - does it work - some say not but the system is a real pain in the ass for trucking companies and very expensive to maintain. I think if I had a trucking company I would close the doors and let the suits Figure out how to get the freight to the shelve...CAT was the only smart one to get out of trucking all together

All new trucks have a dpf (diesel particulate filter) and SCR (selective catylist reduction). To burn the soot in the filter the internal temperatures have to get very high to burn it to ash. Roughly 1100 degrees. With increasing the exhaust temp to that level brings on another issue. High Nox. So then SCR was introduced to inject urea into the exhaust stream to cool the exhaust. From a technical standpoint the air going into the air filter is dirtier than the air coming out the tail pipe as far as particles. This is obviously if it working correctly. The after treatment system requires very little maintenance but no one ever does it until there is a problem. Is it a perfect system, no, but it’s much better than not using it. Europe is fully embracing electric trucks right now. The entire market is going to change. They even have companies that can retro fit your old diesel powered truck to electric. It will take a while for that to come over here because we can’t support it yet.

[hammerhead]

All new trucks have a dpf (diesel particulate filter) and SCR (selective catylist reduction). To burn the soot in the filter the internal temperatures have to get very high to burn it to ash. Roughly 1100 degrees. With increasing the exhaust temp to that level brings on another issue. High Nox. So then SCR was introduced to inject urea into the exhaust stream to cool the exhaust. From a technical standpoint the air going into the air filter is dirtier than the air coming out the tail pipe as far as particles. This is obviously if it working correctly. The after treatment system requires very little maintenance but no one ever does it until there is a problem. Is it a perfect system, no, but it’s much better than not using it. Europe is fully embracing electric trucks right now. The entire market is going to change. They even have companies that can retro fit your old diesel powered truck to electric. It will take a while for that to come over here because we can’t support it yet.

Very cool !

[Laffs]

All new trucks have a dpf (diesel particulate filter) and SCR (selective catylist reduction). To burn the soot in the filter the internal temperatures have to get very high to burn it to ash. Roughly 1100 degrees. With increasing the exhaust temp to that level brings on another issue. High Nox. So then SCR was introduced to inject urea into the exhaust stream to cool the exhaust. From a technical standpoint the air going into the air filter is dirtier than the air coming out the tail pipe as far as particles. This is obviously if it working correctly. The after treatment system requires very little maintenance but no one ever does it until there is a problem. Is it a perfect system, no, but it’s much better than not using it. Europe is fully embracing electric trucks right now. The entire market is going to change. They even have companies that can retro fit your old diesel powered truck to electric. It will take a while for that to come over here because we can’t support it yet.

We've pretty much said once the all electric M2 is out and running we're going to replace our 4300's with it.

[hammerhead]

We've pretty much said once the all electric M2 is out and running we're going to replace our 4300's with it.

Thats pretty exciting - i didn't realize the electric trucks where that far advanced already seems like just a year ago freight liner announced this - it's a fairly short range will that be sufficient for your use - my wife drives a school bus i often said the new freight liner tech would be perfect for school buses - the only thing I can't imagine is how it will be possible to charge a large fleet I have a gazillion other questions too, but that's pretty exciting - do you think it would be wise to get rid of the diesel truck or will you hang onto it fr a while...? I'm curious too will you getting the cascadia...?

[Hutch]

Thats pretty exciting - i didn't realize the electric trucks where that far advanced already seems like just a year ago freight liner announced this - it's a fairly short range will that be sufficient for your use - my wife drives a school bus i often said the new freight liner tech would be perfect for school buses - the only thing I can't imagine is how it will be possible to charge a large fleet I have a gazillion other questions too, but that's pretty exciting - do you think it would be wise to get rid of the diesel truck or will you hang onto it fr a while...? I'm curious too will you getting the cascadia...?
They will have supercharging stations. These in the future will be at ever loading dock. Buses are another thing going full electric. When the bus pulls up to a stop it will be under a supercharging station with very high voltage. Like I said earlier we don’t have the infrastructure to support it quite yet.

[Ponyryd]

I’m not against electric vehicles, but guys, think about it, if were using less fuel and more hydro, imagine how crazy the rates will be in a few years with all that lost tax from fuel!!! The carbon tax is bad enough and it’s just begun, not to mention how high the hydro rates currently are in Ontario......

[hammerhead]

They will have supercharging stations. These in the future will be at ever loading dock. Buses are another thing going full electric. When the bus pulls up to a stop it will be under a supercharging station with very high voltage. Like I said earlier we don’t have the infrastructure to support it quite yet.

this is pretty exciting to me - i've been a mechanic in the trucking industry since 94 - i've grown to hate working on trucks and have been working on trailers (mainly mobile) the last twenty years and have become very bored with it all as I plan to leave the industry - it all seems still far away but perhaps this could keep me in the industry - it all sounds great but does sound very expensive but the idea of no diesel fumes appeals to me i won't even work in a shop anymore mainly because of fumes...I remember many years ago CAT, i think was messing around with Hydrogen but i don't think it lasted too long...

[Hutch]

I’m not against electric vehicles, but guys, think about it, if were using less fuel and more hydro, imagine how crazy the rates will be in a few years with all that lost tax from fuel!!! The carbon tax is bad enough and it’s just begun, not to mention how high the hydro rates currently are in Ontario......

Oh for sure. And the hydro has to be made somewhere. Also the making of the batteries currently is bad on the environment and people. Most mining is done in 3rd world countries with no regulations and not much worker safety if any.

[hammerhead]

Oh for sure. And the hydro has to be made somewhere. Also the making of the batteries currently is bad on the environment and people. Most mining is done in 3rd world countries with no regulations and not much worker safety if any.

yes i was reading about a mine a year or so ago i think it's in south america maybe chile with a big deposit that's so deep it's very difficult to mine - it kind reminded me of the tar sands and i wondered if it was worth it - its strange times ahead i almost feel like a few older generations are just going to get pushed aside and left behind....lol

[Ponyryd]

Oh for sure. And the hydro has to be made somewhere. Also the making of the batteries currently is bad on the environment and people. Most mining is done in 3rd world countries with no regulations and not much worker safety if any.

Yes that’s another problem but I didn’t want to bring it up, lol. Everyone thinks these vehicles are the best thing ever but the reality of it is that they have damaged the environment more during their production than a gasser would in 200,000km.

[Hutch]

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/11/battery-batteries-electric-cars-carbon-sustainable-power-energy/

[Laffs]

Thats pretty exciting - i didn't realize the electric trucks where that far advanced already seems like just a year ago freight liner announced this - it's a fairly short range will that be sufficient for your use - my wife drives a school bus i often said the new freight liner tech would be perfect for school buses - the only thing I can't imagine is how it will be possible to charge a large fleet I have a gazillion other questions too, but that's pretty exciting - do you think it would be wise to get rid of the diesel truck or will you hang onto it fr a while...? I'm curious too will you getting the cascadia...?

We're a construction company and our service area is typically 3 hours. No real need for a highway tractor at this time. We have a couple large cubes on 4300 chassis, honestly between diesel fuel prices and maintenance theres been no savings on fuel vs v10 gas chassis trucks. We're talking phasing them out once the 4300's hit the optimal hold (400k km or so) and replacing with electric M2's if theyre available at that time. Honestly wish the E-M2 was ready to go now since I need a new (to us) chassis for our hi lift dump which sees super minimal mileage and would perfect for EV tech. Will have to wait and see how PTO is handled with EV trucks, imagine running an electrically drive PTO will destroy batteries life. May be a while before our dumps and boom trucks are EV....

[RedSN]

Yes that’s another problem but I didn’t want to bring it up, lol. Everyone thinks these vehicles are the best thing ever but the reality of it is that they have damaged the environment more during their production than a gasser would in 200,000km.
Source?

The US Department of Energy commissioned a report that indicates the opposite of your claim.
https://greet.es.anl.gov/files/vehicle_and_components_manufacturing
Juan Pablo Angulo, Mechatronic engineer, crunches some numbers from that report and summarizes the following:

After 10 years (190,000 km):
Electric Vehicle:
50 GJ + (13.5 GJ x 10) = 185 GJ
3.25 + (2.75 x 10) = 30.75 tons of CO2

Internal Combustion Vehicle:
34 GJ + (21.3 GJ x 10) = 247GJ
2 + (5.3 x 10) = 55 tons of CO2
https://www.quora.com/How-much-energy-is-required-to-build-an-electric-car

The energy and resources required to produce a gasser plus the gas it consumes over those 200,000 km will be more than for an electric vehicle.
While it DOES require more energy and resources to produce an electric vehicle, it makes up for it in the operation over 200,000 km



Most mining is done in 3rd world countries with no regulations and not much worker safety if any.
Australia
Chile
Argentina
China

Top 4 lithium mining countries, with Australia at the top. Hardly 3rd world countries, but I will give you the miner and worker safety records for Chile and China are not great.
https://investingnews.com/daily/resource-investing/battery-metals-investing/lithium-investing/lithium-producing-countries/

[hammerhead]

We're a construction company and our service area is typically 3 hours. No real need for a highway tractor at this time. We have a couple large cubes on 4300 chassis, honestly between diesel fuel prices and maintenance theres been no savings on fuel vs v10 gas chassis trucks. We're talking phasing them out once the 4300's hit the optimal hold (400k km or so) and replacing with electric M2's if theyre available at that time. Honestly wish the E-M2 was ready to go now since I need a new (to us) chassis for our hi lift dump which sees super minimal mileage and would perfect for EV tech. Will have to wait and see how PTO is handled with EV trucks, imagine running an electrically drive PTO will destroy batteries life. May be a while before our dumps and boom trucks are EV....

That sounds like a good plan I was wondering about PTO's - hydraulic lift gates and air brakes amoung other things. Maybe you could use a stand alone power source mounted to the truck that works on fuel for eg. I use (not so much anymore) a large stick welder that doubles as a generator by Teledyne thing makes phase three power on the generator side - it is powers with a 20 hours Honda and gets decent fuel economy . use it to power my Lincoln 6o plasma cutter also poweresd a customers complete office when their was that big black out a few years ago in the summer - come to think of it that was my last vaca...lol its an awesome Machine an dive seen them mounted to trucks in construction related industry

[Gr8Stang]

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/11/battery-batteries-electric-cars-carbon-sustainable-power-energy/

Interesting article. I wonder how many "climatologists" are just shrugging this off? Full steam ahead with renewable energy! Dam the consequences!

[kbbroiler]

Hey guys. Going to go to Ontario Service on Friday. I’m doing my Drivers Licence, Health card, my daily car, my bike and my Mustang. So any reports from the field?

[hammerhead]

Hey guys. Going to go to Ontario Service on Friday. I’m doing my Drivers Licence, Health card, my daily car, my bike and my Mustang. So any reports from the field?

Hahaha sounds like you need a tent

[Ponyryd]

Source?

The US Department of Energy commissioned a report that indicates the opposite of your claim.
https://greet.es.anl.gov/files/vehicle_and_components_manufacturing
Juan Pablo Angulo, Mechatronic engineer, crunches some numbers from that report and summarizes the following:

https://www.quora.com/How-much-energy-is-required-to-build-an-electric-car

The energy and resources required to produce a gasser plus the gas it consumes over those 200,000 km will be more than for an electric vehicle.
While it DOES require more energy and resources to produce an electric vehicle, it makes up for it in the operation over 200,000 km



Australia
Chile
Argentina
China

Top 4 lithium mining countries, with Australia at the top. Hardly 3rd world countries, but I will give you the miner and worker safety records for Chile and China are not great.
https://investingnews.com/daily/resource-investing/battery-metals-investing/lithium-investing/lithium-producing-countries/

Looks like a lot of time to read in those links, if there’s evidence supporting electrics as being cleaner I’m sure it’s possible, but for all the BS and poor driving range, as well as the increased initial cost I’ll stay with fossil fuels.

My source was an article I read a couple years ago, so things may have changed since then as battery production is of course always evolving. It stated there was huge damage to the environment during production of the batteries, as well as the cost of shipping the materials to the battery plant and getting the batteries from the plant to the manufacturer. Also the cost of disposing of the batteries when they’re depleted, which is usually 10-15 years. There was also stats on how damaging leaking batteries are to the environment in the event of a collision or vehicle fire.

[RedSN]

I don't disagree with any of that. There are also issues and costs involved with a gasser when it's done.
Point is: the electric vehicle is not WORSE than the gasser as claimed.

Internal combustion engine vehicles aren't going anywhere anytime soon. What we are seeing now is the beginning of electric vehicles finally becoming a viable alternative. But there's a whole big infrastructure that needs to be added/upgraded/revised to make it better.




Looks like a lot of time to read in those links...
that's why i provided the summary numbers produced by the enginerd ;)

[Laffs]

Hey guys. Going to go to Ontario Service on Friday. I’m doing my Drivers Licence, Health card, my daily car, my bike and my Mustang. So any reports from the field?

Many of us have already gone and registered our cars, no issues reported so far.

[Ponyryd]

^yep, no issues, easy peasy.


I don't disagree with any of that. There are also issues and costs involved with a gasser when it's done.
Point is: the electric vehicle is not WORSE than the gasser as claimed.

Internal combustion engine vehicles aren't going anywhere anytime soon. What we are seeing now is the beginning of electric vehicles finally becoming a viable alternative. But there's a whole big infrastructure that needs to be added/upgraded/revised to make it better.




that's why i provided the summary numbers produced by the enginerd ;)

That’s possible but there’s no way to know what the actual impact is that they have on the environment during production, or in the long run. They’ve really been hyped-up very well, but they’re not nearly as clean as people think and they aren’t charged by magic, the power needs to come from somewhere.

[RedSN]

....they aren’t charged by magic, the power needs to come from somewhere.
I’m not ignorant to the fact that they require power to come from somewhere. But that ‘somewhere’ has a lot more clean options than gasoline. Again, we aren’t there yet, but it’s the right path.

Full disclosure: install solar panels on the roof of the garage, charge a power pack during the day, use power pack to re-charge electric car over night, rinse repeat.... seems kinda magical to me. I know, I know, it’s cost prohibitive at the moment, but it’s doable.

[hammerhead]

I’m not ignorant to the fact that they require power to come from somewhere. But that ‘somewhere’ has a lot more clean options than gasoline. Again, we aren’t there yet, but it’s the right path.

Full disclosure: install solar panels on the roof of the garage, charge a power pack during the day, use power pack to re-charge electric car over night, rinse repeat.... seems kinda magical to me. I know, I know, it’s cost prohibitive at the moment, but it’s doable.

I really think people are going to be more disappointed with the battery life and how it reacts in severe weather - i haven't been keeping up with the progress of late but from reading in the past China reports battery life to be only 5-8 years which contradicts what i read in one of the shared posts here - china is big on electric cars and the government has given big incentives to spawn manufacturing perhaps that's why Tesla is so interested in china among other reasons - lots of lithium - cheap non-unionized mentality. I also read that Quebec is leading the way somewhat in ev's and one of the biggest complaints is full charged battery in severe weather are depleted by 50% - now factor that in with age and 5years may be the limit for a descent ev in Canada... the first Tesla should be reaching 5 years of age if not just beyond - it would be interesting to hear from owners now and what they think and if they get used daily? I think some of those shared posts are old because Germany announced not too long ago that it will phasing out all coal fired plants - as much as I embrace the idea and feel some what sad at the thought of losing the internal combustion engine i do believe battery is not the answer for the survival of the EV. it will need a direct power source or a complete slow down and change to transit - for example i use to drive electric warehouse mobility equipment - my Raymond reach had a top speed of i believe 12mph - the machine was large and heavy but stayed full charged for up to 10 hours deep charge standard batteries - cut that weight in half and maybe pick up 12 mph to twenty for and change its use to transport people in groups like public transit in a steady slowpoke - perhaps guided and powered with a wire to eliminate the need for a driver much like some warehouse equipment. How people work needs to change - at some point we need to stop building roads and mobility infrastructure I fail to see how constant expansion is good for the environment. Miles and miles of asphalt and cement and well as wires ad pipes under ground...to be continued...lol

[Ponyryd]

I’m not ignorant to the fact that they require power to come from somewhere. But that ‘somewhere’ has a lot more clean options than gasoline. Again, we aren’t there yet, but it’s the right path.

Full disclosure: install solar panels on the roof of the garage, charge a power pack during the day, use power pack to re-charge electric car over night, rinse repeat.... seems kinda magical to me. I know, I know, it’s cost prohibitive at the moment, but it’s doable.

You’d need some serious solar power to charge a car, and have you ever priced rooftop solar panels? They’re pretty expensive and I dunno about where you live but around here roofs seem to last about 10 years, so you’d need the solar guys to come out and yank the panels to do the shingles. A barn roof or something would be better but solar panels have a life span as well.
I agree they’re on the right path but a lot of the population think all they need to do is buy electric and “drive for freeeee”. Which may seem to be true if you get a Tesla or can charge at work, but Tesla is subsidized by the gov’t (or at least they used to be), and if it’s being charged at work then that cost will be passed on to whoever is paying for your goods/services. There is no free ride as most of us already know.
I suppose I’m just sceptical and it seems like we’re going to great lengths to promote the lesser of two evils. We have a lot of natural resources, enough to power our vehicles for our lifetime and beyond, and if we lose that huge tax-grab, what will the gov’t do then? Well we all know what they’ll do-tax hydro even more! It’s and endless cycle, nothing is free, we will always pay.

[Stephen06GT]

If the federal and provincial levels of government were serious about climate change and carbon tax and cap and trade the would legislate that any new government buildings, offices, schools, hospitals, etc. be equipped with solar panels and geo-thermal hvac systems. The could also legislate that any new commercial buildings must have the same thing. Just imagine if Square One, Vaughan Mills and the Eaton Centre, to name only three, had their roofs covered with solar panels. Sorry, I'm just rambling.

[Mellow Yellow]

You’d need some serious solar power to charge a car, and have you ever priced rooftop solar panels? They’re pretty expensive and I dunno about where you live but around here roofs seem to last about 10 years, so you’d need the solar guys to come out and yank the panels to do the shingles. A barn roof or something would be better but solar panels have a life span as well.
I agree they’re on the right path but a lot of the population think all they need to do is buy electric and “drive for freeeee”. Which may seem to be true if you get a Tesla or can charge at work, but Tesla is subsidized by the gov’t (or at least they used to be), and if it’s being charged at work then that cost will be passed on to whoever is paying for your goods/services. There is no free ride as most of us already know.
I suppose I’m just sceptical and it seems like we’re going to great lengths to promote the lesser of two evils. We have a lot of natural resources, enough to power our vehicles for our lifetime and beyond, and if we lose that huge tax-grab, what will the gov’t do then? Well we all know what they’ll do-tax hydro even more! It’s and endless cycle, nothing is free, we will always pay.


FYI I have several clients with solar panels on their roofs. Minimum, in this group, is $50K....oh and each of them had to have roofs of less than 5 years old or the company would not install the panels.

The micro fit program isn't worth it. The fee being paid for the electricity produced is peanuts. The utility companies must approve the installation...can't have too many, cause they would have no-one to sell to if everyone had solar panels.

[Ponyryd]

^Thx Kev, that’s good info!

Never mind the fact that they look like shit!

[True Blue]

If the federal and provincial levels of government were serious about climate change and carbon tax and cap and trade the would legislate that any new government buildings, offices, schools, hospitals, etc. be equipped with solar panels and geo-thermal hvac systems. The could also legislate that any new commercial buildings must have the same thing. Just imagine if Square One, Vaughan Mills and the Eaton Centre, to name only three, had their roofs covered with solar panels. Sorry, I'm just rambling.

We have a bunch of schools in the board I work for outfitted with panels, going on 5+ years already.

https://i.postimg.cc/nhVvKZDZ/P-20180724-072152.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/C18DMxWC/P-20180724-072834.jpg

[Laffs]

We have a bunch of schools in the board I work for outfitted with panels, going on 5+ years already.

https://i.postimg.cc/nhVvKZDZ/P-20180724-072152.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/C18DMxWC/P-20180724-072834.jpg

They're great until an installer drops the corner of one on the roof membrane. Yours looks like a 3 ply BUR, should be ok but on single ply stuff we've gotten a lot of leak calls after solar installs. Also when you go to replace the roof and it's a gong show for removal of them is always fun.

[Whitehot]

?? I went in here to see bout drive clean, gettin sticker after April 1st because car was away before needed sticker in Nov. Now everyone is talkin bout solar panels on roofs and everything but..??.. imho ???

[mavrrrick]

They're great until an installer drops the corner of one on the roof membrane. Yours looks like a 3 ply BUR, should be ok but on single ply stuff we've gotten a lot of leak calls after solar installs. Also when you go to replace the roof and it's a gong show for removal of them is always fun.

Same here...TDSB has them on almost all schools.

- - - Updated - - -


?? I went in here to see bout drive clean, gettin sticker after April 1st because car was away before needed sticker in Nov. Now everyone is talkin bout solar panels on roofs and everything but..??.. imho ???

LOL

[Ponyryd]

?? I went in here to see bout drive clean, gettin sticker after April 1st because car was away before needed sticker in Nov. Now everyone is talkin bout solar panels on roofs and everything but..??.. imho ???

There are two threads on it now, this one has gone off-track a bit but it’s still true to the title, the topic is “Drive Clean” after all.

But no worries about getin the sticker, I got mine for two of my dirty rides on Monday, no issue.

[Laffs]

Same here...TDSB has them on almost all schools.

- - - Updated - - -



LOL

You in the roofing game as well?

[hammerhead]

You in the roofing game as well?

I noticed them on the Shelburne high school kinda interesting I imagine they are grid tied its a good idea considering schools are empty for more the I would guess two thirds maybe more of each year - wasted infrastructure kind like office towers

[mavrrrick]

You in the roofing game as well?

Work for tdsb. Was is roofing 25 years ago though.


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[Laffs]

Work for tdsb. Was is roofing 25 years ago though.


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My condolences on the latter.

[mavrrrick]

Lol... thx


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