Need a place to do some wiring, and maybe help with it

[Quicksilver]

I have a small farm, with a 3 level barn, but the irony is that I have no place suitable to put my truck inside. I need to add some auxiliary lights, but it's just too cold outside and I am to old and feeble now to climb underneath the truck to run the wires.

Does anyone have available a garage big enough for an F-250 that I could use for a day, and could they maybe help with doing the job? I live in Stouffville, so somewhere fairly local.
I don't mind a bit of rent for the day, or to pay for help.

[Screw]

http://www.kpautoelectric.com/
Save ur back try Gord

[Quicksilver]

http://www.kpautoelectric.com/
Save ur back try Gord

Thank you. Going to see him today.

[Not4you]

Gord is the best.

[Quicksilver]

He's doing it Thursday

[Quicksilver]

OK. I had it done by the company mentioned above. Nice, friendly, knowledgeable.
However, at $75/hr, they charged me 4 1/2 hours to wire up the lights. I had an LED lightbar pointed forwards, and 2 smaller LED lamps pointed backwards. Considering that the fuses, relays and switches were already there, it seems a bit much. I expected maybe 2 hours or so.
Looking at the bill for installing the snowplow, the plow seller charged me $100 to hoop up the amber flashing light to the upfitter switches, so I figured $200 or so for the LED's. $500 including tax: a bit much.

By the way: the LED's light up the way like daylight. Fabulous.

[Screw]

Best to be clear before commencing a t&m job .
Been great to deal with on my end .

[55 HD]

Shop rate sounds reasonable to me. And you should expect the taxes to be what they are. So you are really only suggesting it took longer than you thought it should. If it is a neat wiring job and everything is protected from wet salt, you might have paid what it was worth. Better to have it done right the first time and not have any issues while your out trying to make money removing snow. JMO

[ZR]

Clean and correct job done takes time. Gord does nice work, hours charged is what I'd have expected to see.

[Armen]

Awesome thread lol.

[Laffs]

Is it 4.5 hours to just wire or 4.5 hours to install and wire lights?

[Screw]

:facepalm:



I once hired the cheapest guy to build my deck & had to tear everything down and re-hire another guy.....

[ZR]

Been there and done that, ended up tearing 9/10 down and redoing.

[ZR]

Bulk of the rides I get in with either aftermarket gauges, stereo and or alarm, abortions under the dash. Recently did complete new harness in a '69 Camaro because of it. Doing same to a '66 vert for the exact same reason.

[Gabe]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the original poster is a small business owner if I am not mistaken. I am surprised to see this type of response to the time it took to complete a quality install by someone who is probably on the other side of this conversation repeatedly from his customers. Quality work takes time and it sounds like this guy does quality work

I am not a business owner, but build furniture for myself. I could easily build a cabinet door for example with pocket screw construction, but chose to do it with rail and stile’s. easily twice the time. How many people would know or care, I don’t know, but I like it done right

[RedSN]

I am surprised to see this type of response to the time it took to complete a quality install by someone who is probably on the other side of this conversation repeatedly from his customers.
I’m not surprised.

I can’t count the number of times I thought something was going to take 2 hrs, and it ended up taking a whole day.

[WTF]

Correct me if I am wrong,

you are very polite

[Clutt gt]

Ever show up to a job and the boys didn't get as far as you thought?
Ever show up on a job and the boys are just packing up, but now you have to book them to return and do it right?

I always prefer my guys take their time and do it right the first time.
It almost always works out for the better that way.

[Gabe]

I’m not surprised.

I can’t count the number of times I thought something was going to take 2 hrs, and it ended up taking a whole day.

I may not have conveyed my point very well. What I was saying was that I was surprised that a small business owner who knows how long a “small or simple” job really takes and is used to interacting with customers who probably question the time that he charges for jobs would have this response to a job he hired someone to complete. I would have expected a bit more empathy/ professional understanding

[Quicksilver]

I may not have conveyed my point very well. What I was saying was that I was surprised that a small business owner who knows how long a “small or simple” job really takes and is used to interacting with customers who probably question the time that he charges for jobs would have this response to a job he hired someone to complete. I would have expected a bit more empathy/ professional understanding


I sell all my projects at a fixed price. My installers work on a fixed price as well, and however long it takes they get the same money. I am known within my industry to pay one of the highest labour rates amongst my competition, and most of my installers do very well.

Anyway. It just seems that almost 5 hours to install the lights is a bit much. Just my opinion. The shop owner was very friendly, seemed knowledgeable, the work appears properly done, and everything works. I paid the bill with only a tiny bit of grumbling, and to be honest I would probably go back there. And yes, the total mentioned included about $30 for material and tax.
Still; Based on what the plow installer charged for the amber flashing light on the truck, I would have expected a little less.

[Armen]

So he installed the lights and wired them?

[Laffs]

I sell all my projects at a fixed price. My installers work on a fixed price as well, and however long it takes they get the same money. I am known within my industry to pay one of the highest labour rates amongst my competition, and most of my installers do very well.

Anyway. It just seems that almost 5 hours to install the lights is a bit much. Just my opinion. The shop owner was very friendly, seemed knowledgeable, the work appears properly done, and everything works. I paid the bill with only a tiny bit of grumbling, and to be honest I would probably go back there. And yes, the total mentioned included about $30 for material and tax.
Still; Based on what the plow installer charged for the amber flashing light on the truck, I would have expected a little less.

So install and wiring is my answer.

Plow installer is dealing with one or two brands of plows most likely, installing them repeatedly in the same locations on lets face it, one of 3 trucks generally. High level of repetition, I'm sure he can do an install in his sleep. This install is not as such I'm sure since he likely gets dozens of LED brands in the shop each with their own mounting hardware and wiring requirements as well as all variety of trucks. Being that the Alumi-Duty is a relatively new truck I'm sure it took at least an hour to determine mounting locations that would work, in addition to determine best locations to route and attached wiring.

I look at it like 2 hours to install, 2 hours to wire, and .5 to double check functionality. Which seems plenty reasonable to a me on well done job.

[Intmdtr]

Not to mention the plow company probably has wiggle room on his marked up prices for plowing equipment....

[Gabe]

I sell all my projects at a fixed price. My installers work on a fixed price as well, and however long it takes they get the same money. I am known within my industry to pay one of the highest labour rates amongst my competition, and most of my installers do very well.

Anyway. It just seems that almost 5 hours to install the lights is a bit much. Just my opinion. The shop owner was very friendly, seemed knowledgeable, the work appears properly done, and everything works. I paid the bill with only a tiny bit of grumbling, and to be honest I would probably go back there. And yes, the total mentioned included about $30 for material and tax.
Still; Based on what the plow installer charged for the amber flashing light on the truck, I would have expected a little less.

You pay your staff fixed rates regardless of what issues they run into during the install? I assume they do not do the quoting so they are on the hook for whatever the estimator decided on pricing the job at regardless of site conditions, weather, materials not showing up on time etc?

[Quicksilver]

You pay your staff fixed rates regardless of what issues they run into during the install? I assume they do not do the quoting so they are on the hook for whatever the estimator decided on pricing the job at regardless of site conditions, weather, materials not showing up on time etc?

I sell Decks and fences. I've been doing that since 1980. I think I pretty much understand site conditions, material delivery, unexpected changes, and the like. My labour pricing does take that into account.
In my industry, most customers will not accept a time and materials price. They want a fixed price for the project. In fact, this is the norm in almost any renovation business, including landscaping, renovations, bathrooms, basements, carpet and flooring installs, windows, furnaces, building of any sort..
I cannot price a job, pay my people by the hour, and then go back to the client and say: oh it took too long, I need more money. Hence I give my crews a fixed price for labour; still, sometimes the client is so difficult I do give the guys more money.

One of my crews is going into his 18th year with me. Another is going into his 5th year with me. Yet another carpenter/crew chief is going into her 8th year with me. And one more has worked for me off and on for 35 years. I must be paying reasonably well or they wouldn't be sticking around.

In any event, without trying to be rude, my business practices are not up for questioning by you, Gabe. When you run your own business in customer service, come talk to me then.

[Quicksilver]

I have to say: I'm a bit taken aback. I simply commented that it seemed a bit much to charge $500 to wire up 3 lights when the fuses and switches were already there.
I was apparently wrong. No one else thinks it to be too much. So I took my lumps, smiled at the proprietor, paid the bill, and recommended him to the the guy who sold me the LED lights.
Why such venom?.

[Gabe]

I sell Decks and fences. I've been doing that since 1980. I think I pretty much understand site conditions, material delivery, unexpected changes, and the like. My labour pricing does take that into account.
In my industry, most customers will not accept a time and materials price. They want a fixed price for the project. In fact, this is the norm in almost any renovation business, including landscaping, renovations, bathrooms, basements, carpet and flooring installs, windows, furnaces, building of any sort..
I cannot price a job, pay my people by the hour, and then go back to the client and say: oh it took too long, I need more money. Hence I give my crews a fixed price for labour; still, sometimes the client is so difficult I do give the guys more money.

One of my crews is going into his 18th year with me. Another is going into his 5th year with me. Yet another carpenter/crew chief is going into her 8th year with me. And one more has worked for me off and on for 35 years. I must be paying reasonably well or they wouldn't be sticking around.

In any event, without trying to be rude, my business practices are not up for questioning by you, Gabe. When you run your own business in customer service, come talk to me then.

I am not surprised that you as an owner and estimator have to quote your projects as firm prices to your clients, that is pretty standard protocol. I am just surprised that your tradespeople/ installers don't work on an hourly basis.
It has nothing to do with how well you pay or treat your people, I have just never heard of this type of business model. My apologies for furthering a conversation you brought up

[Laffs]

I have to say: I'm a bit taken aback. I simply commented that it seemed a bit much to charge $500 to wire up 3 lights when the fuses and switches were already there.
I was apparently wrong. No one else thinks it to be too much. So I took my lumps, smiled at the proprietor, paid the bill, and recommended him to the the guy who sold me the LED lights.
Why such venom?.

I don't detect ANY venom, but more a number of members pointing out that high quality generally begets high prices. The comparison to business was brought about more as an analogy more-so than an attack. I myself pointed out that in my eyes the breakdown of time spent on install and wiring seems fair, so the price being a product of that times the agreed hourly rate seems fair. Also, this is the second post I can recall about yourself having a concern regarding what you perceive to be a reasonable price vs. what a service provider deems reasonable (in reference to a custom car) so perhaps thats a factor as I do know that thread had a similar tone. I'm sure as an estimator you spend a great deal of your time speculating prices so perhaps your view of pricing is skewed in that regard. In either case, glad the work was completed to a high level and hopefully it's a snowy winter for you so the equipment can get a lot of pushes in and make that money back.

[Laffs]

I am not surprised that you as an owner and estimator have to quote your projects as firm prices to your clients, that is pretty standard protocol. I am just surprised that your tradespeople/ installers don't work on an hourly basis.
It has nothing to do with how well you pay or treat your people, I have just never heard of this type of business model. My apologies for furthering a conversation you brought up


For what its worth and not to cast stones or judgement against the OP's business, I am also in construction. All of our production pricing is done on a fixed price quote basis, but all of our labour is paid hourly for the time they spend on the site. If something unforeseen arises there are mechanisms like change directives, contingencies and others to adjust price from the quote/contract. That seems to the pricing structure of most subcontractors I've encountered, so I know it was surprising to me as well. That said, the OP said crews/installers more often than staff, so perhaps his carpenters are more like subcontractors to him which makes more sense given the arrangement.

[Stephen06GT]

So,do the lights work? Any pics of the truck and lights and plow?

[Quicksilver]

So,do the lights work? Any pics of the truck and lights and plow?

The lights work very well. The amount of candlepower they put out is astounding.
If I knew how to post pictures I would happily do so, but I'm an old dinosaur now and don't know how to do it.

[Quicksilver]

For what its worth and not to cast stones or judgement against the OP's business, I am also in construction. All of our production pricing is done on a fixed price quote basis, but all of our labour is paid hourly for the time they spend on the site. If something unforeseen arises there are mechanisms like change directives, contingencies and others to adjust price from the quote/contract. That seems to the pricing structure of most subcontractors I've encountered, so I know it was surprising to me as well. That said, the OP said crews/installers more often than staff, so perhaps his carpenters are more like subcontractors to him which makes more sense given the arrangement.

I tried it by paying by the hour. Last time I did that the actual labour went 130% over, to the point I lost money. A few weeks later the same crew, now on piecework, did a similar job in size and complexity in less than 1/2 the time. Funny, eh?
I have a chart that my crews agree to and have input in. I pay so much per square foot, so much per foot of railing, so much per bench, so much per step, so much for a deck above 6' and so on. Every deck is different.
Almost my entire industry is paid piecework. I cannot think of a single competitor who pays by the hour.

The guys who install your kitchen cabinets are paid by the cabinet.
The fellows who do your new windows are paid by the window
Roofers are paid by the square foot.
House framers are paid by the square foot.
Tile layers are paid by the square foot, as are hardwood floor installers.
When you sell a construction product to someone, it's well nigh impossible to go back to them later and ask for more money. There are 3 components to a price: material, labour, and gross profit. By paying piecework, I can control labour, and mostly material, so my profit (I know: a dirty word) is usually within the range I expect.
And yes, all my crews are subcontractors. Again, extremely common in my industry.

"LAFFS" if you cam make it work by paying your people hourly, then more power to you. I'd gladly listen to any ideas you have.

[ZR]

Reno guy I've used for several projects here at the house, no quote, pay by the hour, could not be more satisfied with finished product. Best part, never once had to have him back for an adjustment or repair once he was done.

[55 HD]

Does anyone have available a garage big enough for an F-250 that I could use for a day, and could they maybe help with doing the job?

This was the question by the OP. So when the install takes 4.5 hrs he has an issue? END OF STORY

[Laffs]

I tried it by paying by the hour. Last time I did that the actual labour went 130% over, to the point I lost money. A few weeks later the same crew, now on piecework, did a similar job in size and complexity in less than 1/2 the time. Funny, eh?
I have a chart that my crews agree to and have input in. I pay so much per square foot, so much per foot of railing, so much per bench, so much per step, so much for a deck above 6' and so on. Every deck is different.
Almost my entire industry is paid piecework. I cannot think of a single competitor who pays by the hour.

The guys who install your kitchen cabinets are paid by the cabinet.
The fellows who do your new windows are paid by the window
Roofers are paid by the square foot.
House framers are paid by the square foot.
Tile layers are paid by the square foot, as are hardwood floor installers.
When you sell a construction product to someone, it's well nigh impossible to go back to them later and ask for more money. There are 3 components to a price: material, labour, and gross profit. By paying piecework, I can control labour, and mostly material, so my profit (I know: a dirty word) is usually within the range I expect.
And yes, all my crews are subcontractors. Again, extremely common in my industry.

"LAFFS" if you cam make it work by paying your people hourly, then more power to you. I'd gladly listen to any ideas you have.

If it works for you, you have the control you need and you're profitable, then you don't need my input. All I will say is if a crew of ours did a job in 2x the time it took to do the same job they did a week ago, that Foreman would have some serious explaining to do. It's also the reason subtrades bid on work solely from the prints/specs without knowledge of the budget. If your guys are subs and not direct employees have you ever considered just giving them all the plans for a job and letting them price their own labour to you?

[Screw]

I like fixed rates /price myself whether I’m doing the work or paying someone, but I totally understand the unexpected potential for extra charges if shit goes south on something....within reason , unlike landscaper who misquoted by 40% ..

[ZR]

Prime example of what most call wiring. Trailer was "professionally" rewired under three years ago. Bits n pieces of scrap wire and a box of scotch locs (approx 30 of them in total), typical of what you see with alarm and gauge installations. This style connector has no place anywhere on your ride, cause more problems than they are worth.