Basic income pilot coming to ontario

[5.4MarkVIII]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/04/18/ontario-embraces-no-strings-attached-basic-income-experiment.html

Never seemed to work anywhere else. But for some reason the Ontario governments things it can do different. Yet again.

Might have something to do with an election coming and they need more votes.

[mavrrrick]

I'm tired of paying for others...Just making it by as it is.

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

[hsousa88]

It will be the norm world wide soon enough.

[USAWIT2]

more government employees?

[Harbinger]

This is very good for a student who can focus on studies it'll help pay for the osap then you can get a proper job

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[ZR]

ARE THEY OUT OF THEIR FLIPPING MINDS!!!!!

[5.4MarkVIII]

I have known so many people that if given the opertunity to be handed a check every month that would cover basic living needs would walk out of work and never go back. We already have a shortage of workers. Not gonna help anything.

[Harbinger]

It's only 1400 dollars approx for a single person. It'll barely cover rent because of greedy owners etc

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[Harbinger]

Rent for tiny condos it's over priced these days. Factor in other expenses such as food and utilities. Find it funny how some people are freaking out over basic income when the cost of living is ridiculously high and employers pay Jack shit for hard working individuals. Gonna leave it at that

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[jibbijib]

It would be a real help for those of us that can't even afford to rent a place on our own. A basic income plus working would be really handy to help me get on my feet.

Last year or the year before the propsed income was ~2500 a month.

To me it would do well. Sure some people would be slackers, but they're going to spend the money right? On top of that, if it was a basic income and anything above it would be yours, I think opportunists would work to make that extra money. At least the basic living would be covered.

As long as crybabies who do nothing but complain about "those ungrateful slackers who do nothing but collect" simmer the fuck down and see it as a positive, it could make local economies boom.

I'm for it. But guaranteed $1416 isnt enough to live on. It would sort of force people to work.

Also I wish these stupid articles would be straight to the point instead of writing in circlejerk filler garbage that no one cares about. I don't care about how it made someone feel. Just present the facts you buncha pussies

[Harbinger]

Hit the nail on the head.



Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[ZR]

Moving out and living on your own involved (not referring to anyone here directly or indirectly, a glance into what just getting by once meant / should still mean today)

-renting a dive basement apartment
-driving a $250 beater (not the winter beater, your 365 driver).
-main staple, Kraft Dinner with an every so often cheap steak cooked at home. Zero, nada, no eating out or fast food.
-entertainment, tiny B&W TV with a coat hanger ant n being lucky if it received two channels. No internet, no 50 channel cable, no movies, no concerts, no cell phone with date, etc etc etc. Certainly no trips that involved anything more than laying on a free beach in say Wasaga with a few beers. A road or plane trip to somewhere cool or warm, was not even a fantasy.
-working as many hours as it took at a job you most likely hated until you came home with enough money in your pocket to at least be able to pay for the above. If there wasn't enough extra work available at job one, you got a second or a third job and or did odd jobs in the neighborhood.

Strangely enough, we survived and most of the time considered ourselves fortunate because it was our crappy apartment and thats what mattered most. Until I see people down to living on the most basic of basics (or less), not interested in supporting them or anyone else.
It's like the crack head bitch that panhandles down the street from us n pulls an I Phone outta her pocket to chit chat between red lights................piss off, the troughs not open.

Yet another program brought into play by a desperate failing govt looking to buy votes.

[G-ForceJunkie]

http://68.media.tumblr.com/6d0987eb03a0655358c94be1352898e4/tumblr_nf1rx44V0l1s3sc51o1_1280.jpg

[R3troGT]

When I was 18 and moved into my first (basement) apartment I was earning a $100 a week. Rent was $75.00 a week. Not a lot of fancy stuff to eat.
Later on I ended up getting a Job in construction (Bricklaying crew) as a laborer, because it paid well per hour, but was hard work. I still struggled off and on since construction is seasonal, or there is a strike or it's raining. My pay was never steady.
I ended up staying in that apartment for 12 years.

There are no guaranties in life. It is not sustainable for the Government to pay people a basic income. Now you have these folks used to getting this cash and potentially only working enough to "get by". What happens when the next party comes along and scraps the program??

[ZR]

Welfare system we currently have in place is not sustainable. Ridiculous how many are sucking on the tit that are capable of supporting themselves but in the same breath, even more ridiculous how many need it but can't find a way to weed through the bureaucratic bs to do so.

[5.4MarkVIII]

Society has lost the grasp on what is a need vs what is a want.

My brother is on social assistance and lives in a government housing apartment. He has developmental Disabilitys. . He gets a monthly allowance from the government that covers food and rent ect. He has a social worker who helps him budget. Even on his very limited income. He can save a bit of money here and there. Saves up so he can go to a movie with friends once or twice a year or so he can go golfing with my dad and brother he also volunteers his spare time at a local good will type store.
It was un beleaveably hard getting him into the program. The waiting list is miles long.

He can live of what he gets. What's the secret? He dosnt waist money on alcohol, cigarets, drugs.. he dosnt have a cell phone, or the fastest internet available. He dosnt eat fast food on a weekly basis.
My parents and his social workers have taught him the difference between a Need and a want.

Sad reality of life is we can't all have what we want. If we want more than what we have we need to work for it.

I keep hearing that there are studies that prove it works but can't seem to find them. I can find papers and articles written by left wing bloggers stating that it works but not giving any proof to back it up.
I have asked people to provide articals that prove it works and only been told to do some reaserch

The artical I posted, to me, proves my point. The family has no running water were given money and used it to buy a new truck.

Human nature will always be a factor. The government would be far far better off to invest as n teaching people how to bugit rather than just hand over money.

The questions that need to be answered are. Who gets the money? What qualifies you to receive it? How is the government going to pay for it?


What he gets from the government covers his needs

[Harbinger]

Moving out and living on your own involved (not referring to anyone here directly or indirectly, a glance into what just getting by once meant / should still mean today)

-renting a dive basement apartment
-driving a $250 beater (not the winter beater, your 365 driver).
-main staple, Kraft Dinner with an every so often cheap steak cooked at home. Zero, nada, no eating out or fast food.
-entertainment, tiny B&W TV with a coat hanger ant n being lucky if it received two channels. No internet, no 50 channel cable, no movies, no concerts, no cell phone with date, etc etc etc. Certainly no trips that involved anything more than laying on a free beach in say Wasaga with a few beers. A road or plane trip to somewhere cool or warm, was not even a fantasy.
-working as many hours as it took at a job you most likely hated until you came home with enough money in your pocket to at least be able to pay for the above. If there wasn't enough extra work available at job one, you got a second or a third job and or did odd jobs in the neighborhood.

Strangely enough, we survived and most of the time considered ourselves fortunate because it was our crappy apartment and thats what mattered most. Until I see people down to living on the most basic of basics (or less), not interested in supporting them or anyone else.
It's like the crack head bitch that panhandles down the street from us n pulls an I Phone outta her pocket to chit chat between red lights................piss off, the troughs not open.

Yet another program brought into play by a desperate failing govt looking to buy votes.
Hard pressed to find a rental for that much. Need a cell phone maybe internet. A winter beater for that cheap will have alot of problems and rack up costs. Change it up maybe switch to city transit and you're spending 200 dollars per month. Never have enough to save in order to get into housing market. I'm basing this off of low income crappy job one two and three.

Let's go back to the crappy beater car. 200Gas, 200 insurance and several hundreds worth of repairs per year. Be eating one loaf of bread a day malnourished and barely surviving. 1500 bucks a month ain't gonna pay for that or let anyone move forward in life with the housing costs the way they are.

To end it: I don't think you will get this government bonus if you are already employed. It's for people who do not have a job from what I understand. There will be cheaters but alot of people will benefit from it. It can potentially help someone get back on their feet and work to getting a better job.

[92redragtop]

Hard pressed to find a rental for that much. Need a cell phone maybe internet. A winter beater for that cheap will have alot of problems and rack up costs. Change it up maybe switch to city transit and you're spending 200 dollars per month. Never have enough to save in order to get into housing market. I'm basing this off of low income crappy job one two and three.

Let's go back to the crappy beater car. 200Gas, 200 insurance and several hundreds worth of repairs per year. Be eating one loaf of bread a day malnourished and barely surviving. 1500 bucks a month ain't gonna pay for that or let anyone move forward in life with the housing costs the way they are.

To end it: I don't think you will get this government bonus if you are already employed. It's for people who do not have a job from what I understand. There will be cheaters but alot of people will benefit from it. It can potentially help someone get back on their feet and work to getting a better job.

Don't get hung up on the specific dollar examples in his response - the concept is accurate and reflects a pre-entitlement and post-entitlement mindset (and maybe post-truth). Too many folks make $30K or $40K and want to live (or think they're entitled to live) an $80K lifestyle without doing what it take to actually have an $80K lifestyle you can afford which might mean choosing continuing education, etc. For the multiple times I offer overtime I only get takers 10% to 15% of the time - I used to jump at the opportunity to make more money and I cannot figure out why my 20-something and some 30-something aged university educated employees won't take the overtime. When I chat with them they might say they want to eventually buy a condo to stop renting or take up photography as a hobby but don't have the money to buy a $500 DSLR - duh! You make $60K annually and I'm going to pay you overtime - it does not take much overtime (maybe skip the $40 bar/food tab and 2 hours with co-workers at the bar across the street on Friday evening and take the damn overtime) and you'll actually get what you say you want. I see our office cleaners surfing their smartphones when they're coming around in the evening - maybe they're secretly millionaires and clean offices for fun but i think they have better data plans and newer phones than I have. New cars, running shoes, fast fashion, $4 coffees, paying for various mobile apps, downloads, subscriptions, etc, etc.

- - - Updated - - -


Moving out and living on your own involved (not referring to anyone here directly or indirectly, a glance into what just getting by once meant / should still mean today)

-renting a dive basement apartment
-driving a $250 beater (not the winter beater, your 365 driver).
-main staple, Kraft Dinner with an every so often cheap steak cooked at home. Zero, nada, no eating out or fast food.
-entertainment, tiny B&W TV with a coat hanger ant n being lucky if it received two channels. No internet, no 50 channel cable, no movies, no concerts, no cell phone with date, etc etc etc. Certainly no trips that involved anything more than laying on a free beach in say Wasaga with a few beers. A road or plane trip to somewhere cool or warm, was not even a fantasy.
-working as many hours as it took at a job you most likely hated until you came home with enough money in your pocket to at least be able to pay for the above. If there wasn't enough extra work available at job one, you got a second or a third job and or did odd jobs in the neighborhood.

Strangely enough, we survived and most of the time considered ourselves fortunate because it was our crappy apartment and thats what mattered most. Until I see people down to living on the most basic of basics (or less), not interested in supporting them or anyone else.
It's like the crack head bitch that panhandles down the street from us n pulls an I Phone outta her pocket to chit chat between red lights................piss off, the troughs not open.

Yet another program brought into play by a desperate failing govt looking to buy votes.

Yup...

[mavrrrick]

OK...I see your point of "getting by"....i'll replace a word.....getting by, getting ahead. Just tired of being taxed to death, nickle and dimed

[5.4MarkVIII]

Hard pressed to find a rental for that much. Need a cell phone maybe internet. A winter beater for that cheap will have alot of problems and rack up costs. Change it up maybe switch to city transit and you're spending 200 dollars per month. Never have enough to save in order to get into housing market. I'm basing this off of low income crappy job one two and three.

Let's go back to the crappy beater car. 200Gas, 200 insurance and several hundreds worth of repairs per year. Be eating one loaf of bread a day malnourished and barely surviving. 1500 bucks a month ain't gonna pay for that or let anyone move forward in life with the housing costs the way they are.

To end it: I don't think you will get this government bonus if you are already employed. It's for people who do not have a job from what I understand. There will be cheaters but alot of people will benefit from it. It can potentially help someone get back on their feet and work to getting a better job.

You have too much faith in people.
The government has programs to help people get back in their feet. When I went back to school over half my class was there in governemntnassitwncenof one form or another. At least a quarter of those people were their for no reason other than to extend their EI. And we're openly admitted to that.

My biggest concern is when the government and especially our Ontario government takes on a project like this. We are going to give more people more money than we currently give out with social assistance programs. But we are going to fund it by cancelling those same programs. I was never great at math. But when did 2x2= 2 ?????

[5.4MarkVIII]

Don't get hung up on the specific dollar examples in his response - the concept is accurate and reflects a pre-entitlement and post-entitlement mindset (and maybe post-truth). Too many folks make $30K or $40K and want to live (or think they're entitled to live) an $80K lifestyle without doing what it take to actually have an $80K lifestyle you can afford which might mean choosing continuing education, etc. For the multiple times I offer overtime I only get takers 10% to 15% of the time - I used to jump at the opportunity to make more money and I cannot figure out why my 20-something and some 30-something aged university educated employees won't take the overtime. When I chat with them they might say they want to eventually buy a condo to stop renting or take up photography as a hobby but don't have the money to buy a $500 DSLR - duh! You make $60K annually and I'm going to pay you overtime - it does not take much overtime (maybe skip the $40 bar/food tab and 2 hours with co-workers at the bar across the street on Friday evening and take the damn overtime) and you'll actually get what you say you want. I see our office cleaners surfing their smartphones when they're coming around in the evening - maybe they're secretly millionaires and clean offices for fun but i think they have better data plans and newer phones than I have. New cars, running shoes, fast fashion, $4 coffees, paying for various mobile apps, downloads, subscriptions, etc, etc.

- - - Updated - - -



Yup...

Holy crap we agree on something. 😂

[92redragtop]

Holy crap we agree on something. ��

LOL!

[Harbinger]

Getting tired of the entitled bullshit argument. You're assuming people even make close to 30 or 40k think below that. I personally believe 40k is a good amount...But anyways this discussion is becoming circular I've said what I needed to say.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[RedSN]

Don't get hung up on the specific dollar examples in his response - the concept is accurate and reflects a pre-entitlement and post-entitlement mindset (and maybe post-truth).
It will be interesting to see how this experiment works now versus in the 70's. Unfortunately (like most people i think) my faith in humanity has evaporated and I think this new money will be squandered on non-essentials. The term 'essentials' seems to be different today than in the 70's.


The bulk of Mincome participants were in Winnipeg where low-income families were randomly chosen along with a control group. Subsequent studies of that cohort showed most male breadwinners didn’t reduce their work hours due to the extra cash, a key question the pilot project aimed to answer. However, fewer women with young children remained in the workforce.

[WTF]

my wife has worked for the same company for 28 years

the company offers geared-to-income housing

the only tenants she's lost over her 28 years....have either died or been turfed because they stopped paying the $95/month subsidized rent (for a 2bdrm btw) that you get when you don't have a job

nobody ever leaves on their own accord....because it's too good

10+ year waiting list to get in

even those who are employed and making an income that qualifies them for max-rent (approx $1,800/month) refuse to leave...because they lose the golden goose of plummeting rent on a job-loss if they go out into the real world

there are literally generations of families that are tenants....because mom told the kids to get on that waiting list the second they were qualified to do so

I don't disagree with a helping-hand to right the ship....but I'd bet 20% would look at the programme that way...and the other 80% would eventually see it as an entitlement and do everything necessary to keep getting the free bucks

[5.4MarkVIII]

Getting tired of the entitled bullshit argument. You're assuming people even make close to 30 or 40k think below that. I personally believe 40k is a good amount...But anyways this discussion is becoming circular I've said what I needed to say.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

Did you read my post? I have a brother that gets by just fine on way way way less than 20k per year. He gets by but dosnt get luxuries. This is reality.

[Harbinger]

my wife has worked for the same company for 28 years

the company offers geared-to-income housing

the only tenants she's lost over her 28 years....have either died or been turfed because they stopped paying the $95/month subsidized rent (for a 2bdrm btw) that you get when you don't have a job

nobody ever leaves on their own accord....because it's too good

10+ year waiting list to get in

even those who are employed and making an income that qualifies them for max-rent (approx $1,800/month) refuse to leave...because they lose the golden goose of plummeting rent on a job-loss if they go out into the real world


Because rent at 1800 dollars is robbery and absurd. How can you even begin to save for a house or condo if you're being raped by high rent ?

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[5.4MarkVIII]

Move out of the high rent areas. Lots of places looking for people to work in small towns like mine. Yes you make less money than in Toronto. But then again. I payed 115k for my two story double brick house with detached garage.

[WTF]

Because rent at 1800 dollars is robbery and absurd. How can you even begin to save for a house or condo if you're being raped by high rent ?

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

hmmm

OK...so lets say you own a house....lets say it's worth a million bucks and you have a small ($200k mortgage)

property and other taxs/fees and maintenance are typically in the $10,000/year range unless there's a bigger job like roof replacement or new windows etc

but...you wanna make the house earn a few bucks

so....lets say you completely renovate your basement to add another kitchen and bathroom with a nice living area and a bedroom....and you go through all the proper permit applications etc....

and even though you didn't go high-end on anything in the reno....it still cost you $53,000

what do you think a fair rate for monthly rent is?

[Harbinger]

hmmm

OK...so lets say you own a house....lets say it's worth a million bucks and you have a small ($200k mortgage)

property and other taxs/fees and maintenance are typically in the $10,000/year range unless there's a bigger job like roof replacement or new windows etc

but...you wanna make the house earn a few bucks

so....lets say you completely renovate your basement to add another kitchen and bathroom with a nice living area and a bedroom....and you go through all the proper permit applications etc....

and even though you didn't go high-end on anything in the reno....it still cost you $53,000

what do you think a fair rate for monthly rent is?

Then the person should live in the blackhole money pit they created instead of forcing others to pay for their overpriced mortgage and unnecessary rennos. A place should be something you live in not something you make money out of. This is why our housing market is so ridiculous because greedy people keep on buying so many homes renting it out and profiting out of it. It's destroying the newer generations ability to afford housing. This is pure greed in my opinion, I'm sure most would completely disagree but I don't give a damn.



Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[03svt]

Move out of the high rent areas. Lots of places looking for people to work in small towns like mine. Yes you make less money than in Toronto. But then again. I payed 115k for my two story double brick house with detached garage.

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^

I've written and deleting a post twice now, this frustrates me to no end.. if you are complaining about not having money while owning and operating a car or two while typing this on a newer phone with a data plan there is no helping you..

Can't afford a place in your area, move! Get a room mate, sell your car (s) and take the fucking bus!

Gready landlords.???.. who is paying for the house? Who is taking a chance that your going to pay your rent and not trash the house and get stuck with the bill!

[WTF]

Then the person should live in the blackhole money pit they created instead of forcing others to pay for their overpriced mortgage and unnecessary rennos. A place should be something you live in not something you make money out of. This is why our housing market is so ridiculous because greedy people keep on buying so many homes renting it out and profiting out of it. It's destroying the newer generations ability to afford housing. This is pure greed in my opinion, I'm sure most would completely disagree but I don't give a damn.
Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

you never answered my question

what do you think the monthly rent should be if you're the property owner?

[Harbinger]

you never answered my question

what do you think the monthly rent should be if you're the property owner?
Condo or house ? If it's a house 700. If it's a condo 300. Ideally [emoji1]

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[Harbinger]

Forgot to add : why are people owning homes and profiting off of it by renting those homes out instead of living in those homes themselves? Something to think about.

Anyways I'm out. Good little debate and excellent info to think about.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[WTF]

Condo or house ? If it's a house 700. If it's a condo 300. Ideally [emoji1]

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

get on the waiting list at my wife's company then.....you'll be waiting a few decades....but you won't need a job

[Harbinger]

get on the waiting list at my wife's company then.....you'll be waiting a few decades....but you won't need a job
Lmao no thanks. Would rather die than sit around doing nothing and not contributing to society.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[WTF]

Forgot to add : why are people owning homes and profiting off of it by renting those homes out instead of living in those homes themselves? Something to think about.
Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

because investing in real-estate is typically less risky than the stock market

if I could go back 20 years, I'd have taken my down-payment and split it...bought another house on my street and rented it out....rent would covered the better part of the mortgage...20 years later sell it and probably make the better part of a million bucks after taxes

[RedSN]

Forgot to add : why are people owning homes and profiting off of it by renting those homes out instead of living in those homes themselves? Something to think about.

My brain hurts thinking about it.

[WTF]

Lmao no thanks. Would rather die than sit around doing nothing and not contributing to society.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

forgot to mention

for the 2 years my wife and I rented....it was $814/month for a 2 bdrm...water heat, window AC until...3 level no elevator....ancient kitchen and bathroom....one parking spot and a locker at Eglinton and Yonge

that was over 20 years ago...and it felt like a lot of money back then

[jibbijib]

I think people are forgetting that we are talking about humans... Not unfeeling robots that never have any personal or mental problems.

But hey, apparently we live in a perfect world where everyone who collects welfare or ei is a worthless pos that does nothing but drink all day and do drugs.

[Harbinger]

My brain hurts thinking about it.
Greed doesn't come to your mind? Profit should come from honest work not having people pay for a house you can't afford yourself.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[92redragtop]

Because rent at 1800 dollars is robbery and absurd. How can you even begin to save for a house or condo if you're being raped by high rent ?

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

Sorry, how is trying to pay for your investment as a landlord/property owner raping someone for high rent? If someone wants to live in an area with million dollar property values then the rent will reflect those values (basic economics right unless you're advocating social housing using high cost private properties?). If they cannot afford to pay rent or mortgage in a high cost area then they need to move somewhere that is in their budget versus feeling entitled to live in a million dollar property at a subsidized (by the property owner) rate. Only your mother/father should be willing to subsidize you like that and even then they're not doing a favour by entitling their kid like that.

[Harbinger]

Sorry, how is trying to pay for your investment as a landlord/property owner raping someone for high rent? If someone wants to live in an area with million dollar property values then the rent will reflect those values (basic economics right unless you're advocating social housing using high cost private properties?). If they cannot afford to pay rent or mortgage in a high cost area then they need to move somewhere that is in their budget versus feeling entitled to live in a million dollar property at a subsidized (by the property owner) rate. Only your mother/father should be willing to subsidize you like that and even then they're not doing a favour by entitling their kid like that.
I think you're missing my point.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[92redragtop]

Greed doesn't come to your mind? Profit should come from honest work not having people pay for a house you can't afford yourself.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

What's the mortgage payment on a $400K or $600K or $800K condo plus property taxes and maintenance/utilities? Should the property owner at least cover these costs when they rent? Not sure what's greedy about covering your expenses?

[92redragtop]

I think you're missing my point.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

Is this a communism/socialist point? The market determines the price if land/buildings and owners have to cover their cost - nothing to do with affordability. It's basic math and economics.

[WTF]

I think people are forgetting that we are talking about humans... Not unfeeling robots that never have any personal or mental problems.

But hey, apparently we live in a perfect world where everyone who collects welfare or ei is a worthless pos that does nothing but drink all day and do drugs.


think about it this way

wouldn't you like to make like $320,000 per year gross?

feel pretty nice eh?

so....how would you like it when nearly 1/2 of that is taken from you

so you make $320,000....but $160,000 is taken from you in taxes

you got that......$13,333.33 is taken from you each month

I think if the general pop weren't being taxed right up the hoop already....then people would generally be more charitable and open to these ideas...but that's not the case

tax rate in Ont all in with the fed and province is something like 53.5%

so when you're cranking in the coin....you're paying more in tax than you're taking home

do you think that's fair?

[92redragtop]

Forgot to add : why are people owning homes and profiting off of it by renting those homes out instead of living in those homes themselves? Something to think about.

Anyways I'm out. Good little debate and excellent info to think about.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

OK so lets say a property owner just want to "breakeven" (ie. collect just enough to pay the mortgage and taxes/expenses - no profit), you would be ok with that scenario?

[jibbijib]

think about it this way

wouldn't you like to make like $320,000 per year gross?

feel pretty nice eh?

so....how would you like it when nearly 1/2 of that is taken from you

so you make $320,000....but $160,000 is taken from you in taxes

you got that......$13,333.33 is taken from you each month

I think if the general pop weren't being taxed right up the hoop already....then people would generally be more charitable and open to these ideas...but that's not the case

tax rate in Ont all in with the fed and province is something like 53.5%

so when you're cranking in the coin....you're paying more in tax than you're taking home

do you think that's fair?

And then the govt fights tooth and nail to keep that tax. They go as slow as possible processing any outstanding payments they owe you but be damned if you can't pay them fast enough.

Honestly I'm all for the idea. Money in the hands of people means money being spent. Which means more paying jobs. Some people can't even afford to work these days.

But hey, lets keep doing the same thing and expect better results. Let's never try anything new and see what happens. That would be horrible!

[92redragtop]

And then the govt fights tooth and nail to keep that tax. They go as slow as possible processing any outstanding payments they owe you but be damned if you can't pay them fast enough.

Honestly I'm all for the idea. Money in the hands of people means money being spent. Which means more paying jobs. Some people can't even afford to work these days.

But hey, lets keep doing the same thing and expect better results. Let's never try anything new and see what happens. That would be horrible!

It has been tried and doesn't work that well - take a look at North Korea, Russia, and other countries that were based on hand-outs.

[03svt]

Greed doesn't come to your mind? Profit should come from honest work not having people pay for a house you can't afford yourself.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

Most people who have a rental property isn't because they can't afford it, it's usually a second property.

You must be very young?

My friends who own rental property aren't making a killing off of them like your suggesting, most make 200-300 on a month on top of mortgage/property tax.

You think 300$ a month is fair for a condo but have no issue pissing away the equivalent money on headlights for your car... you see why I have an issue taking what your saying seriously, you can't save money for a house but your modding your car....

[92redragtop]

A $500K condo will cost $1700 month on loan payment at 0% interest over 25 years. Add $400 in condo fees you're at $2100 month just to cover cost - no profit. Add another $300 month for property taxes and you're at $2400 in cost only - no profit.

You want to pay $300 month for a condo that costs minimum $2400 month (at 0% interest; still have to add in about 3% mortgage interest)? That sounds like Kathleen Wynne math. What is the point I am missing?

[Harbinger]

Most people who have a rental property isn't because they can't afford it, it's usually a second property.

You must be very young?

My friends who own rental property aren't making a killing off of them like your suggesting, most make 200-300 on a month on top of mortgage/property tax.

You think 300$ a month is fair for a condo but have no issue pissing away the equivalent money on headlights for your car... you see why I have an issue taking what your saying seriously, you can't save money for a house but your modding your car....
My headlights? Common really? Petty and divergent. You like to assume things about me. I'm just trying to make a point. I'm literally leaving this debate have fun [emoji111]

[03svt]

Hard pressed to find a rental for that much. Need a cell phone maybe internet. A winter beater for that cheap will have alot of problems and rack up costs. Change it up maybe switch to city transit and you're spending 200 dollars per month. Never have enough to save in order to get into housing market. I'm basing this off of low income crappy job one two and three.

Let's go back to the crappy beater car. 200Gas, 200 insurance and several hundreds worth of repairs per year. Be eating one loaf of bread a day malnourished and barely surviving. 1500 bucks a month ain't gonna pay for that or let anyone move forward in life with the housing costs the way they are.

To end it: I don't think you will get this government bonus if you are already employed. It's for people who do not have a job from what I understand. There will be cheaters but alot of people will benefit from it. It can potentially help someone get back on their feet and work to getting a better job.


My headlights? Common really? Petty and divergent. You like to assume things about me. I'm just trying to make a point. I'm literally leaving this debate have fun [emoji111]

I feel it's relevant.. can't save money to get into housing market but investing cash into modding your car...

[Laffs]

Most people who have a rental property isn't because they can't afford it, it's usually a second property.

You must be very young?

My friends who own rental property aren't making a killing off of them like your suggesting, most make 200-300 on a month on top of mortgage/property tax.

You think 300$ a month is fair for a condo but have no issue pissing away the equivalent money on headlights for your car... you see why I have an issue taking what your saying seriously, you can't save money for a house but your modding your car....

$200-$300 /month is about right for a small residential rental, which you have to keep in reserve for when a major expense like a roof, HVAC, water leakage happens. Also it's not money for nothing, you basically sign up to be on call 24/7 365 for everything from "hey I know your on vacation but can you come fix a slightly leaking tap it's driving my dog nuts" to "hey it's Canada Day and we accidentally broke a window with bottle rockets need you to fix that" You're basically making money on the back end in a lot of cases as the mortgage pays down and possible value increases, then you get to choose whether you take the income or roll the die again and pull that equity to buy another and the cycle continues.

Making money on property takes a lot more than just "buy it" and comes with an inherent amount of risk. Saying people are greedy for trying to make money flys in the face of pretty much everything that is the economy.

[hsousa88]

This is great.... keep going guys.

[hsousa88]

In all fairness, the housing prices are waaaaay out of wack right now.

You guys talk about people saving up, buy a house ect. Yeah that's great and all but it's not that simple.

I love the select few in this thread that make it sound so easy, but bought they're home 30 years ago for fucking peanuts.

My old man paid for his home working construction, came here with fuck all.

GOOD LUCK buying a home in the GTA and paying it off in 15-20yrs~ working construction today.. ha! and us UNION members make pretty decent coin, not 6 figure dollars but decent.

[92redragtop]

In all fairness, the housing prices are waaaaay out of wack right now.

You guys talk about people saving up, buy a house ect. Yeah that's great and all but it's not that simple.

I love the select few in this thread that make it sound so easy, but bought they're home 30 years ago for fucking peanuts.

My old man paid for his home working construction, came here with fuck all.

GOOD LUCK buying a home in the GTA and paying it off in 15-20yrs~ working construction today.. ha! and us UNION members make pretty decent coin, not 6 figure dollars but decent.

Maybe buying within your means, means not buying in the GTA but instead looking at somewhere that fits the means? Unless there is some entitlement about living in the GTA?

[5.4MarkVIII]

In all fairness, the housing prices are waaaaay out of wack right now.

You guys talk about people saving up, buy a house ect. Yeah that's great and all but it's not that simple.

I love the select few in this thread that make it sound so easy, but bought they're home 30 years ago for fucking peanuts.

My old man paid for his home working construction, came here with fuck all.

GOOD LUCK buying a home in the GTA and paying it off in 15-20yrs~ working construction today.. ha! and us UNION members make pretty decent coin, not 6 figure dollars but decent.

I could never afford to buy a home in Toronto. That's why I don't live in Toronto.
I could make twice the money doing the same thing. But have to pay 3 or four times the expenses. No thanks.

[tulowd]

Back to the basic point rather than all the fluff about the housing market in GTA, which is an entirely OTHER mess, in part created by the voracious appetite for tax dollars of our fed and provincial governments.

The idea of helping those truly in need and less fortunate is something every society has done since Ugh and Uga got together in the cave in 10 000 BC. Some solutions in the past included a variety of actions, including leaving those behind who couldn't fend for themselves.

Today, in the modern day western world, it is our governments job to ensure safety and security for it's citizens. In Canada's case this includes health care, as well as social assistance programs such as EI, Welfare, etc.

What I fail to understand from the article is this money is suddenly available to do this, instead of:
a) fixing the existing metrics of social assistance and usage
and
b) If the poverty line is $ 22 000 income per person, why is our basic income tax personal exemption only roughly half of this number?
The inefficiencies of the existing system are ludicrous and make both users and payers see red, literally.

A system that doesn't help people fend for themselves is a fail. A system that promotes users not leaving is insanity.
The rules and usage of existing systems must first be somewhat efficient before launching some other new social justice program.
Take a look closer at the Toronto Public Housing mess and some of the other moronic initiatives and bafflegab scenarios out there that just Hoover money out of the tax coffers with insanely low efficiencies.

The other side of course are the people in need of support (the many), as opposed to those (the few) who are milking it.

I fully support the ideals of our society helping those in need, but to further burn our tax dollars with another new program requiring plenty of government ministries and pubic servants to administer in this obvious vote grab is insane.

When my radiator leaks, I don't go out and buy skidloads of bottled water to keep filling it up rather than repairing it.

[hsousa88]

Maybe buying within your means, means not buying in the GTA but instead looking at somewhere that fits the means? Unless there is some entitlement about living in the GTA?

I don't plan on buying within the GTA, I'm going straight up the 400.

That's not my point. My point is that 20 years ago you COULD buy a home in the GTA, pop out a couple of kids, buy a car, fuck your wife in a nice hotel once a month and still have money left over.

[5.4MarkVIII]

I think people are forgetting that we are talking about humans... Not unfeeling robots that never have any personal or mental problems.

But hey, apparently we live in a perfect world where everyone who collects welfare or ei is a worthless pos that does nothing but drink all day and do drugs.

No one ever said that everyone who collects welfare is a worthless pos. but the truth is that some who do are. Those bad apples make it far more difficult for the rest who actually need it.

What works? Capitalisam. Not crony capitalisam like out liberal governments love now. The old proper capitalisam. Where everyone made money. Remember in the 50,s and 60's then the economy was booming and unemployment rates were lower. It wasn't perfect. Nothing is. But it worked for a lot more than this socialist shit whole that our governments have slowly shoved us into over the last 40 years.
But know talk to the average young person now a days. Capitalisam is bad socialisam is the best. History tells us different.

[92redragtop]

I don't plan on buying within the GTA, I'm going straight up the 400.

That's not my point. My point is that 20 years ago you COULD buy a home in the GTA, pop out a couple of kids, buy a car, fuck your wife in a nice hotel once a month and still have money left over.

That's a different, more complex topic (GTA pricing and market forces).

[hsousa88]

That's a different, more complex topic (GTA pricing and market forces).

Different yes, complex.. I don't see what's complex. Generation Y is fucked, that's complex.

[92redragtop]

Different yes, complex.. I don't see what's complex. Generation Y is fucked, that's complex.

You have a solution to this non-complex problem?

[ZR]

All kinds of landlords fall into the same category as me, will never ever ever ever ever rent my basement apartment out again. Under our present system, get a bad tenant, almost easier n less painful to get divorced vs evict them. Second reason, care less about what it cost me, changing all bulbs to 100 watts (three in bathroom alone) and making a point of never shutting them or anything else off 24/7. All in, about $350 month gross profit, well before they moved out leaving several thousand dollars in damages behind.
Got bit twice, never again.

[5.4MarkVIII]

Different yes, complex.. I don't see what's complex. Generation Y is fucked, that's complex.

Generation Y has fucked themselves.
It's Generation Y that can't bugit and wants the newist of the new
It's Generation Y that can't give a business any loyalty and bail on a good job the min they thing they can make 3 cents more somewhere else.
It's Generation Y that looks on every business owner or person with more money than them as their enemy and the cause of all their problems.
It's Generation Y that care more about social issues than how they will pay for those issues.
It's Generation Y that has embraced the socialist movement (which has never worked anywhere threw-out history) and helps to vote in the socialist governments.
It's Generation Y that feels the. Wed to spend thousands on useless degrees. Without bother to care if that degree will get them a job
I could go on and on and on.

And for the record I'm 35

[hsousa88]

I budget, decent savings acct.
Same company for 7 years
Not at all, I tend to make friends with everyone
Could careless about social issues.. 3 genders wtf?
Socialist movement? meh...
I dropped out of college, make more money than friends of mine who finished.

I'm 28.. you can't point fingers at a whole generation because of today's problems.

[hsousa88]

You have a solution to this non-complex problem?

Me? Dude, I'm a construction worker. :)

Let's save this discussion for another topic.

[5.4MarkVIII]

I budget, decent savings acct.
Same company for 7 years
Not at all, I tend to make friends with everyone
Could careless about social issues.. 3 genders wtf?
Socialist movement? meh...
I dropped out of college, make more money than friends of mine who finished.

I'm 28.. you can't point fingers at a whole generation because of today's problems.

There are exceptions to every rule. I've grown up and worked beside these people and constantly wondered WTF!

Your only 28. Your just starting. Keep working hard and you time will come.

[WTF]

Different yes, complex.. I don't see what's complex. Generation Y is fucked, that's complex.

fucked?.....would you have rather paid $400k for your house in the late 80s....and paid 18% interest on your mortgage?

I had a choice 20 years ago

1) a bungalow with a single car garage on a 40ft lot walking distance from the subway line
2) a much bigger house and lot with a long GO train commute to the office
3) do fuck all and pay rent so someone else could pay the mortgage

I chose option #1 and I'm not apologizing for it (it was mainly for the short commute because I woulda loved the sq footage)....many people I know in my demo chose option #3 because the bubble was gonna burst or prices were too high or interest rates weren't low enough etc etc....and they've now paid more in rent than I did to pay for my house in full

if my wife and I were NOW where we were THEN...I would still have 3 options

1) a condo on the subway line
2) a house with a long GO train commute
3) paying someone else's mortgage

I would be picking option #2...because it's not in my DNA to pay someone else's mortgage

fwiw....I never owned my Mustang before I bought my house...the last fly away trip I took was my honeymoon to Aruba 23 years ago....and I don't own a cell phone

I never did a single significant mod to my Stang until it was paid in full and I never did a significant reno to my house until it was paid in full

one of my counterparts in the office (with his wife) over the last 4 years bought a townhouse in Burlington for $245k....sold it last year for $305k and bought a detached for $490k

they seem happy and content in the new place and are ready to pop out baby #2....and he gets into the office every morning before 9am

so what's the problem?

there's gobs of options.....complain and pay someone else's mortgage...or adapt and enjoy life

[hsousa88]

fucked?.....would you have rather paid $400k for your house in the late 80s....and paid 18% interest on your mortgage?

I had a choice 20 years ago

1) a bungalow with a single car garage on a 40ft lot walking distance from the subway line
2) a much bigger house and lot with a long GO train commute to the office
3) do fuck all and pay rent so someone else could pay the mortgage

I chose option #1 and I'm not apologizing for it (it was mainly for the short commute because I woulda loved the sq footage)....many people I know in my demo chose option #3 because the bubble was gonna burst or prices were too high or interest rates weren't low enough etc etc....and they've now paid more in rent than I did to pay for my house in full

if my wife and I were NOW where we were THEN...I would still have 3 options

1) a condo on the subway line
2) a house with a long GO train commute
3) paying someone else's mortgage

I would be picking option #2...because it's not in my DNA to pay someone else's mortgage

fwiw....I never owned my Mustang before I bought my house...the last fly away trip I took was my honeymoon to Aruba 23 years ago....and I don't own a cell phone

I never did a single significant mod to my Stang until it was paid in full and I never did a significant reno to my house until it was paid in full

one of my counterparts in the office (with his wife) over the last 4 years bought a townhouse in Burlington for $245k....sold it last year for $305k and bought a detached for $490k

they seem happy and content in the new place and are ready to pop out baby #2....and he gets into the office every morning before 9am

so what's the problem?

there's gobs of options.....complain and pay someone else's mortgage...or adapt and enjoy life

$400k for a home in the late eighties? sorry but where?

[92redragtop]

Me? Dude, I'm a construction worker. :)

Let's save this discussion for another topic.

If it's non-complex then anyone can solve it right?

[92redragtop]

Generation Y has fucked themselves.
It's Generation Y that can't bugit and wants the newist of the new
It's Generation Y that can't give a business any loyalty and bail on a good job the min they thing they can make 3 cents more somewhere else.
It's Generation Y that looks on every business owner or person with more money than them as their enemy and the cause of all their problems.
It's Generation Y that care more about social issues than how they will pay for those issues.
It's Generation Y that has embraced the socialist movement (which has never worked anywhere threw-out history) and helps to vote in the socialist governments.
It's Generation Y that feels the. Wed to spend thousands on useless degrees. Without bother to care if that degree will get them a job
I could go on and on and on.

And for the record I'm 35


‘Everything I hate about you … is because of me?’ How Baby Boomers created their own Millennial Monsters

http://news.nationalpost.com/life/everything-i-hate-about-you-is-because-of-me-how-baby-boomers-created-their-own-millennial-monsters

[03svt]

Not everyone can afford to buy in the GTA, simple as that.. nothing wrong with buying outside that area and commuting.

My wife and I bought our first place 10yrs ago at age 24, saved for 4yrs, managed to come up with 25k, first place we bought it for 250k in Stoney creek, 5yrs later sold it for 400.

Bought our new house 3yrs ago for 650 and now it's worth nearly a million.

Now I'm not in the GTA, and I'm fortunate enough to have a 15min drive into the office. My point is, it all starts with some hustle and time to get that downpayment and buying in an area you can afford to start out in.

The expectation to buy a million dollar starter house is absurd.

[WTF]

$400k for a home in the late eighties? sorry but where?

avg price for a GTA house in the late 80s was $325k

that was average

there were countless $400k homes

if you think the market today is FUBAR...you shoulda seen the late 80s....house prices were going up 30% annually (like today) but interest rates were in the high teens

all those new subdivisions north of hwy 7 between yonge and leslie up to newmarket were brand new and people were going nuts trying to buy multiple homes

developers back then wouldn't even pre-sell before they built

[RedSN]

FUBAR...you shoulda seen the late 80s....house prices were going up 30% annually (like today) but interest rates were in the high teens
Try making payments on a 100 acre farm when interest is that high. Oh the good old days.

I do consider myself lucky though. After scraping by and graduating in the middle of the 90's recession, I timed the real estate market pretty good in the mid 2000's. Bought a house just as the prices started to skyrocket, and interest rates tanked. I do feel sorry for the current generation; you can't make it in the city. But that's not to say things are tougher than previous gens.

[WTF]

I do consider myself lucky though.

you make your own luck

I still carry a "cat-key" on my key chain....used to start a caterpillar in the late 80s

when I worked Construction for Con Drain

[5.4MarkVIII]

True! if you raise a kid to be self entitaled and not responsible for their own actions. Don't be surprised when they grow up to be self entitaled adults who don't want to be responsible for their own actions.
What scares me is what the future generations are going to be like because every generation seems to be worse than the last.

[Laffs]

I'm 30 now. Saw the housing market in Windsor was going to go up when I was in my early twenties so I made it my mission to get in to a house before that happened. Didn't go out drinking in bars every weekend, didn't take lavish vacations like my friends, didn't go to every event like they did and didn't have any clothes considered designer. I managed to make some extra cash detailing, flipped a car I got for cheap, and got lucky to buy my Mustang and had a $2500 GMC Jimmy with 300k km on it as a daily. I debated selling both a few times to buy a cheap Honda to have more cash in reserve.

I was making sub 40k and saved up over 30k by time I was 26, and my gf and I put down on our first house which was a train wreck not in my dream area but a nice area and keeps my mortgage low in case rates go up.

Doesn't have a big garage or huge rooms but will be paid off in under 8 years. Spent every night and weekend for a year and a half working on it make it nice using reused and recycled materials, The market did go up here and housing prices in many areas have doubled. I now listen to my friends who were ballin out of control in their twenties bithing about how "house prices are ridiculous" and saying no one can afford a house.

Best time to start saving is now, of you're not saving money you're living beyond your means which isn't anyone's fault but your own. I feel that's the biggest problem with people my age, everyone has an expectation of a standard that's two high and like to whine about "well they (other generations) had it easier". Maybe they did maybe they didn't, life's not fair stop blaming others and figure it out.

[HyperGT]

this is true. When i bought my first house in 2001 for $210k my neighbour said he knew the previous owner in the late 80's that sold it for about the same. It took along time for the markets to come back, and they did. That house would now be worth nearly a buck.


avg price for a GTA house in the late 80s was $325k

that was average

there were countless $400k homes

if you think the market today is FUBAR...you shoulda seen the late 80s....house prices were going up 30% annually (like today) but interest rates were in the high teens

all those new subdivisions north of hwy 7 between yonge and leslie up to newmarket were brand new and people were going nuts trying to buy multiple homes

developers back then wouldn't even pre-sell before they built

[steam_mill]

80% of life is luck. 20% is sweat.

My wife and I for 7 years after we graduated worked 70 hour weeks. She had 2 jobs In nursing. I had my daylight IT job, nights I continued to do support for a former employer. Weekends I scrubbed toilets. This was from 1993 to 2000.

My wife was just under 30 and I was just over 30. We busted our a$$es. We owned our home and bought a cottage in 2000.

Property values rose. We sold our large Toronto home and bought a small bungalow since we now had 2 properties to maintain.

We worked hard but we were also lucky.

We were also unlucky and realized we couldn't have children. Sh!t happens.

I have a former employee. If I could choose someone to be my child, she would be the one.

She just turned 30, married and now with child. Her and her husband bought their first home at 25. They lived in 700 sq feet and rented out the rest. They have since sold and bought their forever home. Guess what? They live in less than half the house and rent out the rest.

I figure she will be in the same spot financially as my wife and I were.

I'm a gen x, she is gen Y. It can be done.....luck and hard work

[Black Sheep]

80% of life is luck. 20% is sweat.

My wife and I for 7 years after we graduated worked 70 hour weeks. She had 2 jobs In nursing. I had my daylight IT job, nights I continued to do support for a former employer. Weekends I scrubbed toilets. This was from 1993 to 2000.

My wife was just under 30 and I was just over 30. We busted our a$$es. We owned our home and bought a cottage in 2000.

Property values rose. We sold our large Toronto home and bought a small bungalow since we now had 2 properties to maintain.

We worked hard but we were also lucky.

We were also unlucky and realized we couldn't have children. Sh!t happens.

I have a former employee. If I could choose someone to be my child, she would be the one.

She just turned 30, married and now with child. Her and her husband bought their first home at 25. They lived in 700 sq feet and rented out the rest. They have since sold and bought their forever home. Guess what? They live in less than half the house and rent out the rest.

I figure she will be in the same spot financially as my wife and I were.

I'm a gen x, she is gen Y. It can be done.....luck and hard work

"luck" is what happens when preparation and hard work meets opportunity

[Gabe]

Similar story to alot of the stories here, paid every single dollar of my college and university education myself, have had a job since I was 12, worked 70 hours a week in the summers since I was 15 (as a roofer). Worked a full time job while getting my degree in manufacturing engineering from McMaster. Saved up and put a downpayment on a house (with my GF at the time) while I was still in school. Saved and bought my wife a ring and we paid for our entire wedding ourselves, after we had moved into the house because we determined that was more important. 36 now, house will be paid for in a few years. But my wife and I are fighting to have kids, spent 40k in the last 2 years in fertility and don't get one dollar of government handout for that (that has recently changed, our next round of IVF will be partially funded).

You get out what you put in, and I have zero problem looking at myself in the mirror and knowing I have put it in

My brother and sister in law work for the school board, complain they don't have enough money to buy a new car or go on fancy vacations becauase they dont make enough money, but when the school year ends and they sit at home for 2 months collecting EI instead of going out and getting a job. I have zero sympathy for their situation

[01cobra]

I figured I'd chime in here....
There are some ways I agree with government handouts and others I disagree. For injuries on the job (which i can directly speak about) the system is skewed. WSIB maxes out paying 86k (85% of 86k). For some of us, like myself, I busted my rear to get where I was in life. I was making 120k working 2 jobs at the time of my injury. Regardless of gas expenses and all that, I am making no where near where I was. I cannot buy a home on my income now.

On the flipside, you have people that can work. You have people that are educated, have a degree or diploma that choose to sit at home and collect a paycheque. Ontario Works + baby bonus + no daycare cost. Why work? If you aren't forced to provide for anyone but yourself then why push yourself? (im not speaking in terms of myself as thats not my attitude).

The housing market right now is unaffordable. If you werent given the oppourtunity to live at home post college or had OSAP to pay for then good luck.

Heres a basic Break down....
Average ontario income is $50,500 taxed at 25% (if not more) = 37875/12=3156 take home
From that....
Savings - 10% - 315
Home - 35% - 1100
Life - 25% - 790
Transportation 15% - 475
Debt repayment 15% - 475

So lets throw some numbers out there......Average ontario insurance is 1550 a year (130 a month). That leaves you with 345$ a month for a car loan if you have one, maintenance, and gas. average canadian drives 20k a year, average car gets 25mpg or 9.5L/100km. This equates to a monthly bill of 158L of gas. at 1.10 a liter, you are spending 175$ in gas. You now have 170$ left for anything from an oil change to tires. Dont forget a new vehicle as good times dont last forever.

"Home"....you could do it. Not purchase but you could rent a basement apartment at 1100 inclusive. No internet or cable unless its included and definately not downtown.

oh and saving 25% for the downpayment.....lets see. You couldnt afford anything more than 160k note on your mortgage so everything else is mortgaged. Lets say the condo you are looking at is 275k....You would need to save up 68750 (actually youd need to save 115k). To save that with your savings you are looking at 18 years to save just the down payment.

Case closed.

[92redragtop]

2nd job and throw all of it to saving? Add continuing education to try and earn more?

[01cobra]

2nd job and throw all of it to saving? Add continuing education to try and earn more?

Keep in mind those quotes dont include having any kids.
Continuing education....so more debt? Are you going to work 2 jobs and do schooling?

[Laffs]

My GF is currently working two jobs and going to school, it's stressful as hell but isn't fatal and needed in the current climate to progress further.

[Zexhuffer]

Yeah life it tough fucking suck it up or die. I have been running two jobs for 15+ years now.

So funny how all these people talk about how hard it is to get by and say they can't save but now I'm supposed to hand more of the cash I can't afford it to some fuck who doesn't want to work. Fuck that. Can't afford the city move out.
Need more money get a better job.

You can look on Kijiji any day of the year and find people looking for labourers for above min wage

Jobs are always there if you want to work which will always pay more than welfare

[01cobra]

Yeah life it tough fucking suck it up or die. I have been running two jobs for 15+ years now.

So funny how all these people talk about how hard it is to get by and say they can't save but now I'm supposed to hand more of the cash I can't afford it to some fuck who doesn't want to work. Fuck that. Can't afford the city move out.
Need more money get a better job.

You can look on Kijiji any day of the year and find people looking for labourers for above min wage

Jobs are always there if you want to work which will always pay more than welfare

I myself didnt complain. I hustled for 10 years prior to my injury working 2 jobs back to back. Overtime...yes please. I save over 25% of my income even now. I'm just stating average ontarian cant get by making average wages.
Lets not get into the $1000 a month daycare cost per child.

The argument is if you started from nothing. Good luck buying even a condo on the Average wage. OSAP debt,kids, ...likely not in this lifetime.
The only way you can do it is if you cohabitate or co purchase with someone else or have had a large inheritance. The other way is working yourself to death with 2 jobs.

[92redragtop]

Keep in mind those quotes dont include having any kids.
Continuing education....so more debt? Are you going to work 2 jobs and do schooling?

I did - full time job plus part time job 3-5 days per week, and doing a part-time degree program with an almost full-time course load (depending on the term it was either 2 to 4 courses per term although I dropped to one course in the term I got married) for seven years because I came to Canada at age 20 so did not follow the traditional path most Canadian kids did (and as immigrants my parents were starting over, had 3 other kids and didn't really have money to give me so education was either paid for by me plus employer benefits and wedding, house downpayment, car payment all self-funded). Later on while doing my master's degree I had classmates who had spouses and kids they had to deal with as well in a program that demanded 80-90 hours per week in the first year, and I lived in a different city from my wife three times over that 2 year period. After seven years of 2 jobs and night school I left both jobs and went back to school full time for two years financed with $60K in debt, graduated, bought a house with the downpayment we saved while working 2 jobs and doing night school, paid the debt off as quick as possible while paying mortgage, etc. The fox vert I had since 1994 remained stock until the $60K student debt was paid off.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for complainers (excluding injuries/development challenges, etc - there's always some exceptions; at Islington subway station yesterday a 20-something healthy looking 200lb guy in a Blue Jays jacket/nice clothes was standing begging for change - WTF?) but it is absolutely doable as long as someone is willing to put the effort, time, and sacrifice in.

[Black Sheep]

it's simply easier to complain than do something about it.
i see dollars wasted all the time on things that are absolutely not needed (just to keep up with the Jones). if you want something different, then, just maybe, ya might have to sacrifice a luxury or two. trust me, in most cases there are luxuries that are not needed.
we did that exact thing for years so we could be in the place we are in now.
go see a money manager and have your eyes opened.

[92redragtop]

there are luxuries that are not needed.

A luxury is not a need - period.

[92redragtop]

On a related theme - Life is about choices right? What will some do with their tax refund (if they are getting one)? From an email I got this week:


5 Things to do with Your Tax Refund

Many treat their tax refunds like lottery winnings and spend it on a whim. I'm wondering if we would use this "found cash" differently if it was treated more like the hard-earned money that it really is? We should remember that this "found money" is money you worked for and has been overpaid to the government.

There are ways to multiply the benefits of your refund that can greatly enhance your wealth and go a long way to achieving your life's important financial goals. Here are five of them.

1. Pay down non-deductible debt - at 40% marginal tax, you must earn $166.66 of gross income to have $100 of after-tax income to pay non-deductible debt. If you are paying 3% interest nondeductible interest, every dollar you pay down that debt is the same as earning a 5% after tax guaranteed return. I'm not aware where anyone can get a 5% guaranteed no risk return.

2. Multiply your tax refund - at 53.53% marginal tax, allocating your tax refund from a $10,000 RRSP contribution to a spousal RRSP (assume 40% tax rate for spouse). Then, add the spousal RRSP refund to an RESP and you will now have $17,922 working for you inside tax efficient plans for an initial $10,000 investment. It looks like this:

RRSP contribution: $10,000. (a)

Refund (to Spousal RRSP) $ 5,353. (b)

Spousal Refund to RESP $ 2,141. (c)

Add Spousal Refund to RESP - 20% grant $428. (d)

Total working dollars: $17,922. (a+b+c+d)

Total Out of Pocket $10,000.

3. Buy Tax Exempt Life Insurance - Tax Exempt Life Insurance has three significant tax benefits.

a) Tax Shelter growth of the investments
b) Tax free payout of the death benefit
c) Allows tax free withdrawals from a corporation using the Capital Dividend Account (CDA)

4. Tax Free Savings Account (TFSA); every dollar added to your tax-free savings account will never be taxed again during your life and at death.

5. Spend- if you have a written financial plan to achieve your life's important financial goals and you are on track to achieve those goals; congratulations! You can spend your refund without guilt.

By regularly using these tax refund strategies, your wealth and financial comfort will mushroom. The secret here is to have the discipline to actually do what you want to do. Remember, knowing but not doing is really nothing.

Not all the strategies are suited to every investor as each person's situation is different. Always ensure that you review your entire financial situation with a qualified and experienced Financial Advisor prior to implementing any tax or investment strategy.

[Laffs]

92red, you said something in a previous post that I think is the difference between a lot of peoples mindsets, sacrifice. Sometimes to go forward you have to go back. If you're barely getting by, eliminate the non essentials and take the money you were spending towards those items to build for the future. Many people can't bear the thought of being without a smartphone/internet/newer car (or car at all) or the thought of not having "free" time on evenings and weekends, but those are things that can be forsaken for a time in order to get to a better end point.

[92redragtop]

92red, you said something in a previous post that I think is the difference between a lot of peoples mindsets, sacrifice. Sometimes to go forward you have to go back. If you're barely getting by, eliminate the non essentials and take the money you were spending towards those items to build for the future. Many people can't bear the thought of being without a smartphone/internet/newer car (or car at all) or the thought of not having "free" time on evenings and weekends, but those are things that can be forsaken for a time in order to get to a better end point.

Agreed - good synopsis.

[01cobra]

92red, you said something in a previous post that I think is the difference between a lot of peoples mindsets, sacrifice. Sometimes to go forward you have to go back. If you're barely getting by, eliminate the non essentials and take the money you were spending towards those items to build for the future. Many people can't bear the thought of being without a smartphone/internet/newer car (or car at all) or the thought of not having "free" time on evenings and weekends, but those are things that can be forsaken for a time in order to get to a better end point.

It is a mindset or an attitude. I might not own a house (I have in the past but due to relationship break down we sold it) but, I have enough savings to cover my funeral and pay for my kids education. Thats not even touching my life insurances which are maxed out. And I guess that there is a completely different attitude, i dont carry debt. I dont have credit card debt. I own my car. I owe no one.
My attitude changed about 5 years ago when i became financially smart. I used to work hard and would spend it friviously. Was a dangerous game because I didnt think about my retirement or anything. I then smartened up. Made things easy. I figured out my hard bills (rent, car payment, insurance, cell phone, internet), soft bills (gas, "allowance", anything that fluctuates) The rest would be forced savings. The hard bills would be depositted into one account and wouldnt be touched. The soft bills would go onto my no fee account. I had to work with what i had in that account, if i wanted to go on vacation, id have to leave money in there. What about my savings?....If i worked overtime or a stat, it would automatically be dumped into the savings account. You dont miss it if you dont see it.
In addition to this, I also had money being sent out to my financial advisor. Forced savings is a beautiful thing. Having kids is also a real wake up call as you can no longer be selfish in your actions.

[01cobra]

On a related theme - Life is about choices right? What will some do with their tax refund (if they are getting one)? From an email I got this week:


5 Things to do with Your Tax Refund

Many treat their tax refunds like lottery winnings and spend it on a whim. I'm wondering if we would use this "found cash" differently if it was treated more like the hard-earned money that it really is? We should remember that this "found money" is money you worked for and has been overpaid to the government.

There are ways to multiply the benefits of your refund that can greatly enhance your wealth and go a long way to achieving your life's important financial goals. Here are five of them.

1. Pay down non-deductible debt - at 40% marginal tax, you must earn $166.66 of gross income to have $100 of after-tax income to pay non-deductible debt. If you are paying 3% interest nondeductible interest, every dollar you pay down that debt is the same as earning a 5% after tax guaranteed return. I'm not aware where anyone can get a 5% guaranteed no risk return.

2. Multiply your tax refund - at 53.53% marginal tax, allocating your tax refund from a $10,000 RRSP contribution to a spousal RRSP (assume 40% tax rate for spouse). Then, add the spousal RRSP refund to an RESP and you will now have $17,922 working for you inside tax efficient plans for an initial $10,000 investment. It looks like this:

RRSP contribution: $10,000. (a)

Refund (to Spousal RRSP) $ 5,353. (b)

Spousal Refund to RESP $ 2,141. (c)

Add Spousal Refund to RESP - 20% grant $428. (d)

Total working dollars: $17,922. (a+b+c+d)

Total Out of Pocket $10,000.

3. Buy Tax Exempt Life Insurance - Tax Exempt Life Insurance has three significant tax benefits.

a) Tax Shelter growth of the investments
b) Tax free payout of the death benefit
c) Allows tax free withdrawals from a corporation using the Capital Dividend Account (CDA)

4. Tax Free Savings Account (TFSA); every dollar added to your tax-free savings account will never be taxed again during your life and at death.

5. Spend- if you have a written financial plan to achieve your life's important financial goals and you are on track to achieve those goals; congratulations! You can spend your refund without guilt.

By regularly using these tax refund strategies, your wealth and financial comfort will mushroom. The secret here is to have the discipline to actually do what you want to do. Remember, knowing but not doing is really nothing.

Not all the strategies are suited to every investor as each person's situation is different. Always ensure that you review your entire financial situation with a qualified and experienced Financial Advisor prior to implementing any tax or investment strategy.

Very good advice on the Income tax return. Exact same as I do....I allocate monthly contributions to rrsp. What i get back from income tax goes right back into rrsp. Some people prefer to treat themselves to a trip or car mods. I save.

[92redragtop]

Very good advice on the Income tax return. Exact same as I do....I allocate monthly contributions to rrsp. What i get back from income tax goes right back into rrsp. Some people prefer to treat themselves to a trip or car mods. I save.

Depending on your tax bracket (ie. lower) you can also roll the refund into your TFSA so future earning on the dollars are tax free.

[RedSN]

We should remember that this "found money" is money you worked for and has been overpaid to the government.
It's worse than that. It's been an interest free loan to the government.

[92redragtop]

It's worse than that. It's been an interest free loan to the government.

Yup! Tax refunds are not good - you should aim to be in a situation where you have to pay them versus them pay you - if you are doing it right.

[jibbijib]

I think the best thing the govt could do is make mandatory "Life 101" classes in Highschool.

When I was in highschool, we had those courses. They were elective of course. All the academic courses were mandatory (Math, English, Being a whiney bitch etc) and if you wanted to keep up with the Jones' and go so College/University you had to get as many academics as you could.

We had courses like Home Ec (basically cooking) some fashion course, and a math course based on personal finance. But those were all optional. Trades courses were just starting to become a hot topic(this is circa 2001-2004).

It should be mandatory for kids to learn how to deal with real life shit such as taxes and investing, buying a house/car etc. How to budget for such things and what to plan to save for. Also cooking cleaning and how to take care of your vehicle and or house blah blah blah. How to not be a baby factory and suck the system dry cuz you wanna be a lazy ****.

That stuff should be taught, because we all know the parents hardly have the time to do that. What with both parents working full time jobs just to keep ahead because they also missed out on this learning and had to figure out as they went.

We live in a society where it's "normal" to leave it to the "professionals" to do a lot of the things we are capable of doing ourselves. But most of us are too scared to do it because of lack of confidence (aided by lack of knowledge).

I'm down for the basic income. But holy shit Canada, start teaching deez kids what REAL life is about before they get shoved face first into the shit pile. Maybe that will be the redemption.

My generation is right on the cusp of the "we can figure this shit out no problem" and "fuck you pay me for being alive" mentality. After us is "fuck you pay me" as the majority. And it doesn't happen that way.

Our generation didn't fuck itself, it's the lack of recognition that shit's gotta change to be with the times that has fucked us.

And we won't do fuck all about it.

[Black Sheep]

I think the best thing the govt could do is make mandatory "Life 101" classes in Highschool.

^^sounds good^^

[RedSN]

It should be mandatory for kids to learn how to deal with real life shit such as taxes and investing, buying a house/car etc. How to budget for such things and what to plan to save for.


Basic personal economics are taught in school at the elementary and secondary school level and have been standardized since 2010 http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/financial_literacy_eng.pdf , my 3 boys have a much better grasp of commerce at their ages, than I did at their age.

Why are Liberals are always looking to blame and a reason to spend?
http://www.torontomustangclub.ca/forums/showthread.php?2661-Here-Come-the-New-Liberal-Taxes/page2

[01cobra]

I think the best thing the govt could do is make mandatory "Life 101" classes in Highschool.

When I was in highschool, we had those courses. They were elective of course. All the academic courses were mandatory (Math, English, Being a whiney bitch etc) and if you wanted to keep up with the Jones' and go so College/University you had to get as many academics as you could.

We had courses like Home Ec (basically cooking) some fashion course, and a math course based on personal finance. But those were all optional. Trades courses were just starting to become a hot topic(this is circa 2001-2004).

It should be mandatory for kids to learn how to deal with real life shit such as taxes and investing, buying a house/car etc. How to budget for such things and what to plan to save for. Also cooking cleaning and how to take care of your vehicle and or house blah blah blah. How to not be a baby factory and suck the system dry cuz you wanna be a lazy ****.

That stuff should be taught, because we all know the parents hardly have the time to do that. What with both parents working full time jobs just to keep ahead because they also missed out on this learning and had to figure out as they went.

We live in a society where it's "normal" to leave it to the "professionals" to do a lot of the things we are capable of doing ourselves. But most of us are too scared to do it because of lack of confidence (aided by lack of knowledge).

I'm down for the basic income. But holy shit Canada, start teaching deez kids what REAL life is about before they get shoved face first into the shit pile. Maybe that will be the redemption.

My generation is right on the cusp of the "we can figure this shit out no problem" and "fuck you pay me for being alive" mentality. After us is "fuck you pay me" as the majority. And it doesn't happen that way.

Our generation didn't fuck itself, it's the lack of recognition that shit's gotta change to be with the times that has fucked us.

And we won't do fuck all about it.

Is it a generational thing or is it the pressure to be more educated than the last generation yet missing the fundamentals such as personal finance, fixing shit yourself, and using contraceptives since the schools are too scared to touch on sex ed now. Only positive about the future generation is they won't be able to read my writing....since cursive is no longer taught.

[WTF]

since the schools are too scared to touch on sex ed now. .

I think it's the opposite....I think they're fixated on this shit....and to hell with all the useful stuff that 99.9% of kids might need for a leg up in the future

they wanna make sure little Bobby knows that he can be Cindy if he wants too....and if he wants to stay like Bobby but dress like Cindy then he'll get his own washroom

and when they're not fixated on who pisses where...they're rummaging through lunch boxes to make sure everyone has the approved food

and University is even fucking worse

when I went to York U....the word "trigger" meant two things
1) what you pull to fire a gun
2) the horse Roy Rogers rode

and now....you're just not aloud to "trigger"....ohhhh don't you trigger...if you trigger I'm calling the authorities

it is a generational thing....and the current generation responsible for this shit show in our schools should be ashamed

[StAnger]

This quote here is complete bullshit.


Some say unconditional cash transfers to individuals could even help staunch the rise of alt-right populism blamed for last year’s Brexit vote in the U.K. and Donald Trump’s election as president in the U.S.

Populism is on the rise in part due to the arrogance of the left, and the above statement is a perfect example of said arrogance. To me it's the left thinking if they throw money at the disenfranchised, those who fear for their job, or those sick of "refugees" coming into our country and getting a free ride that we'll support their globalist agenda. Well f**k them. If I qualify for basic income, I'll be donating it to whichever party leans furthest to the right.

[ZR]

Premier Kathleen Wynne announced Monday a plan to study basic income in Ontario, in a three-year pilot project based in Hamilton, Lindsay and Thunder Bay.
The province will explore the effectiveness of providing a basic income — no matter what — to people who are currently living on low incomes, "whether they are working or not," Wynne said.
Wynne said the pilot will provide the basic income to 4,000 households chosen from applicants invited "randomly" by the province in the coming weeks.
A single person could receive up to about $17,000 a year, minus half of any income he or she earns. A couple could receive up to $24,000 per year. People with disabilities could receive up to $6,000 more per year.
"People are anxious about their jobs; they're anxious about their futures," she said. "They're worried about the soaring costs of renting or buying a place to live."
People are especially concerned for those who don't start out wealthy, she said.
"Many people are concerned about what the world is promising for their kids," she said. "It's a world of global competition, reduced benefits, more and more part-time employment."
'We need to address the concerns of those who worry about falling behind, even as they work so hard to get ahead.'<cite class="pullquote-source" style="border-bottom: 1px solid rgb(220, 220, 220); color: rgb(89, 89, 89); display: block; font-size: 0.786em; font-style: normal; padding: 6px 8px 8px;">- Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne</cite>
The premier said the three-year project will start with people making "just under $17,000 a year, but even that amount may make a real difference to someone who is striving to reach for a better life.
"We have chosen these communities intentionally because they are the right size and they have the right mix of population," Wynne said.
"We need to address the concerns of those who worry about falling behind, even as they work so hard to get ahead."
The amount is not "extravagant," she said, but it sends a message:
"It says to them, 'Government is with you; the people of Ontario are with you,'" she said.
4,000 households to be studied

Joining Wynne were Minister of Community and Social Services Helena Jaczek and Chris Ballard, the minister responsible for the province's poverty reduction strategy.
Jaczek said that people in the program will be randomly contacted from each region's low-income population and invited to apply.
The program will cost $50 million a year for each of the three years and 4,000 households will participate. That will include 1,000 people from the Hamilton, Brantford and Brant regions.






























<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/fPx6ePRRWcs?ecver=2" width="480" height="360" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="" style="position: absolute; width: 460.023px; height: 345.008px; left: 0px;"></iframe>
People who receive medical and dental benefits from the province under other welfare programs would not have to give those up.
The ministers have been spearheading the province's effort to experiment with basic income. The strategy for reducing poverty involves "a system of automatic transfers for those beneath an income threshold," according to a discussion paper (https://www.ontario.ca/page/finding-better-way-basic-income-pilot-project-ontario#section-3) on the topic commissioned by Wynne and the ministers last summer.
The province has said it will launch the pilot project providing money to low-income households with no strings attached.

[92redragtop]

Need a "dislike" button....(or a barf button will do)

[ZR]

Your not kidding.

[01cobra]

Even working minimum wage, 40 hrs a week you are making more than 17k a year....

[ZR]

Article from the Sun.


It would appear that Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne, now the province’s nanny-in-chief, did not look at her balance sheet before gambling on a pilot project to provide a guaranteed minimum income on the backs of her already broken-back taxpayers.
While the idea of a tarted-up welfare system — and a guaranteed, no-strings-attached annual income is nothing more than another name for welfare — may have marginal support, it requires a government with its coffers flush with cash, not $320 billion in debt.
But Wynne, whose popularity is circling the bowl like never before, wants to get re-elected next year, so no supposedly poverty-busting promise is too great for someone in the throes of being flushed down the political toilet.
It’s just unaffordable.
The guinea pigs for this three-year experiment, although doomed from the outset because of the Ontario Liberals’ history of boondoggles and their failure to get almost anything right, will be the low-income residents of Hamilton, Lindsay and Thunder Bay who are now able to apply for a freebie of $17,000 a year minimum.
They’re now the first players in a lottery for laggards.
In order for basic income to even come close to succeeding, it has to first see the province’s budget balanced, its huge social-services bureaucracy whittled down and not expanded, and with a smaller government footprint being the foundation for it all.
This, however, has never crossed a Liberal’s mind.
They believe, like the NDP, that money grows from bloat.
When Guy Caron — an obscure Quebec MP and economist — announced his bid in February to replace Tom Mulcair as leader of the federal NDP, he entered the race with a basic income policy.
It appealed to the Toronto Star which, on its own, should scare the bejeebers out of anyone who is not a wealthy progressive or looking for a ride free.
No surprise, therefore, that, like Wynne, Caron did not look at the federal debt of $612 billion, and the blossoming deficit under the Trudeau Liberals projected to soon hit the $30-billion mark. Or that the combined federal-provincial debt across the nation has every man, woman and child in Canada owing almost $36,000 apiece.
Around the same time as Caron was tossing his socialist chapeau into the ring, a pre-budget report tabled in the Commons asked the Liberals to also consider a universal basic income.
But what the hell? It’s only money, right, and too bad that the billions already owed and with no end in sight will be saddled on those damn millennials and their children?
Basic income is not new, of course.
The first Muslim caliph, Abu Bakr, father-in-law of Islamic prophet Mohammad, introduced a guaranteed minimum standard of income.
Twenty dirhams a year, or about five bucks in today’s money.
Napoleon thought it was a good idea. So too did American economist Milton Friedman.
Oddly, it was also Friedman who coined the phrase “there is no such thing as a free lunch.”
One would like to think, therefore, that the Wynne Liberals would have thought this through, although that would be wrong.
When asked directly where the money would come from to actually pay for the basic income pilot project, Minister of Community and Social Services Helena Jaczek was flummoxed.
“I’m actually not quite sure where it’s coming from,” she said.
May the gods spare us all.

[5.4MarkVIII]

4000x 17000=68,000,000

So basic math says the project will be at least 68 million per year in just payouts. That dosnt include admin fees and pocket lining as we know the liberals are apt to do.

But liberal math assures us it will only cost 50 million per year.............

[ZR]

Yes sir, exactly that.

[Laffs]

http://i.imgur.com/7wzX329.jpg

[mavrrrick]

Liberals buying votes again???!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ZR]

Of course they are.

[mavrrrick]

I don't know about anyone else.... but I like to get kissed before I get f***ed!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ZR]

Current Federal / Provincial govts are out of their freakin minds.

[01cobra]

By LAURIE MONSEBRAATENSocial justice reporter
Mon., April 24, 2017
Ontario’s long-awaited basic income pilot project will include 4,000 low-income people in the Hamilton area, Thunder Bay and Lindsay, who will each receive up to $17,000 annually with no strings attached, starting as early as this summer.

Premier Kathleen Wynne announced the three-year experiment in Hamilton on Monday as part of a major speech on how the Liberal government plans to ensure all Ontarians, including those struggling in low-wage, precarious work, benefit from the province’s balanced budget and improved economy.

“It’s not an extravagant sum by any means. For a single person, we are talking about just under $17,000 a year, but even that amount may make a real difference to someone who is striving to reach for a better life,” she said.

“The project will explore the effectiveness of providing a basic income to people who are currently living on low incomes, whether they are working or not,” she said. “People participating in our pilot communities will receive a minimum amount of income each year — a basic income, no matter what.”

Under the plan, single adults between the ages of 18 and 64 will receive up to $16,989 annually and couples will receive up to $24,027. People with disabilities will receive an additional $6,000.

Single people would have to earn less than about $34,000 to qualify and the income cut-off for couples would be about $48,000, according to a government spokeswoman.

First announced in the 2016 budget, the pilot is expected to cost $50 million a year and help the government determine whether a streamlined approach to delivering income support improves health, education and housing outcomes for vulnerable workers and those on social assistance. The pilot also wants to see if providing an income floor below which nobody can fall improves job prospects for those living on low incomes.

A similar experiment in Manitoba in the 1970s showed a drop in hospital use, particularly for mental health problems, as well as increased high school completion in the test community of Dauphin.


“We want to find out whether a basic income makes a positive difference in people’s lives . . . and whether it is an approach that deserves to be adopted across our province as a whole,” Wynne added.

During questioning by community members at Hamilton’s historic LiUNA Station, Wynne said there would be regular updates on the pilot and that Ontarians would know how the government plans to proceed by the end of the experiment.

Since about 70 per cent of low-income Ontarians are working, the government expects a similar proportion of participants will be employed or self-employed, said Social Services Minister Helena Jaczek who is leading the project with Housing Minister Chris Ballard.

The basic income amount represents 75 per cent of the province’s low-income measure, or poverty line, of about $22,653 for a single person in 2016. (The low-income measure is equal to half the median income in the province, adjusted for family size.)

Participants will be able to increase their total income through work, while their basic income payment decreases by 50 cents with every dollar they earn.

For example, a single person earning $10,000 a year from a part-time job would receive an additional $11,989 in basic income ($16,989 minus $5,000) for a total income of $21,989, according to the government.

Opposition party leaders were generally supportive of the idea, but said they would be watching closely as the pilot project rolls out this spring and summer in Thunder Bay and the Hamilton area, including Brantford and Brant County. Lindsay will join the project in the fall.

A basic income pilot for First Nations is being developed in collaboration with community partners and will likely be announced later in the year.

Ontario Progressive Conservative Leader Patrick Brown said former Conservative senator Hugh Segal’s involvement as a government adviser on the plan gives him confidence “because he’s a sharp individual.”

The NDP has long backed the concept, Leader Andrea Horwath noted.

But she wondered why the government set the basic income amount below the poverty line.

“I’m very, very worried that the government puts a pilot project in place that doesn’t even meet the basic (needs) of people,” she told reporters Queen’s Park.

“How do you bring people out of poverty when you’re not even giving them a basic income that meets the poverty line,” she added.

Those on social assistance will be able to keep their drug cards and other benefits. But Employment Insurance and Canada Pension Plan payments will be deducted from the basic income dollar for dollar.

Participants in the pilot will be randomly chosen by mail in the test communities. Homeless people will be eligible if a shelter is chosen during the randomized selection process, officials said. Participation is voluntary and no one will be worse off.

About 1,000 households will be chosen in the Hamilton area and another 1,000 will be invited to participate in Thunder Bay. About 2,000 are expected to take part in Lindsay, where larger community impacts of the basic income will be studied. Participants must be living in one of the test locations for the past 12 months or longer to be eligible.

Payments will begin in the Hamilton and Thunder Bay areas this summer, while participants in Lindsay will be recruited in the fall.

Basic income champions welcomed the premier’s announcement, especially the plan to allow participants on social assistance to keep their existing benefits.

“We are pleased to see that it is basic income-plus,” said Sheila Regehr of Basic Income Canada Network. “I’m pretty confident they have got a lot of the details worked out. We are very excited to see this getting started.”

Social Policy expert John Stapleton, a member of Jaczek’s income security reform working group, said he is anxious to see if a basic income is a better alternative to social assistance.

“We’re finally going to get information to see if this is the right thing to do to replace the welfare system as we know it in Ontario,” he said.

Advocates for those with mental health problems were pleased the pilot will measure health outcomes.

“There is a link between income and health,” said Camille Quenneville, of the Canadian Mental Health Association, Ontario division. “Those with lower incomes generally report poorer physical and mental health than those in the higher income.”

Nearly half of all people receiving benefits from the Ontario Disability Support Program live with a mental illness, she added.

Anti-poverty activists said the government must ensure prospective participants currently living on social assistance fully understand the trade-offs involved in exchanging their welfare cheque for a basic income.

“For the small number of people on social assistance who will be selected, the additional income and the elimination of the punitive and regressive rules will be a welcome change,” said Jennefer Laidley of the Income Security Advocacy Centre, a legal clinic that advocates for people on social assistance.

“But each person will have to be well informed about the possibility of losing access to other important benefits they might currently receive,” she said, adding every person’s situation will be different.

The most pressing issue, besides reforming the entire system, Laidley said, is that everyone on social assistance needs a significant increase in their benefits now.

“The basic income pilot cannot be a reason for government to delay making immediate investments to improve the lives of people they know are living on meagre, sub-poverty incomes.” she said. “I’m hoping we’ll see that kind of investment in the budget on Thursday.”

Ontario is among several areas in the world experimenting with the idea of a minimum or basic income, including Finland, which began a two-year pilot in January. Kenya, the Netherlands and Scotland are also considering a test.

With files Kristin Rushowy